[{"start":"00:00:00.515","start_ms":515,"end":"00:00:04.037","end_ms":4037,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"Especially when we make guidelines that are going to be used potentially by"},{"start":"00:00:04.037","start_ms":4037,"end":"00:00:07.819","end_ms":7819,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"hundreds of people, we have such a responsibility to do them properly."},{"start":"00:00:28.031","start_ms":28031,"end":"00:00:32.674","end_ms":32674,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"Hi everyone, welcome to a new episode of Data Stories. My name is Moritz Stefano"},{"start":"00:00:32.674","start_ms":32674,"end":"00:00:34.935","end_ms":34935,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"and I'm an independent designer of data visualizations."},{"start":"00:00:35.776","start_ms":35776,"end":"00:00:39.757","end_ms":39757,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"In fact, I work as a self-employed truth and beauty operator out of my office"},{"start":"00:00:39.757","start_ms":39757,"end":"00:00:41.698","end_ms":41698,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"here in the countryside in the north of Germany."},{"start":"00:00:42.499","start_ms":42499,"end":"00:00:46.280","end_ms":46280,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"And usually I record this podcast together with Enrico Bertini,"},{"start":"00:00:46.280","start_ms":46280,"end":"00:00:50.462","end_ms":50462,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"who is a professor at Northeastern University in Boston. But today I'm solo."},{"start":"00:00:51.142","start_ms":51142,"end":"00:00:55.804","end_ms":55804,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"But luckily I'm joined by two guests today, which you will hear about in a minute."},{"start":"00:00:56.405","start_ms":56405,"end":"00:01:00.846","end_ms":60846,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"Just in terms of introductions, on this podcast, we talk about data visualization,"},{"start":"00:01:00.846","start_ms":60846,"end":"00:01:04.348","end_ms":64348,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"data analysis, and generally the role data plays in our lives."},{"start":"00:01:04.348","start_ms":64348,"end":"00:01:08.700","end_ms":68700,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"The topic today is data design themes, design systems, style guides,"},{"start":"00:01:08.700","start_ms":68700,"end":"00:01:10.130","end_ms":70130,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"guidelines, design languages."},{"start":"00:01:10.491","start_ms":70491,"end":"00:01:15.633","end_ms":75633,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"You can already see there's a whole cosmos of new formats emerging here in this"},{"start":"00:01:15.633","start_ms":75633,"end":"00:01:21.195","end_ms":81195,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"space that we want to explore together today. And hopefully you'll learn something new."},{"start":"00:01:21.816","start_ms":81816,"end":"00:01:24.889","end_ms":84889,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"And it's an exciting new emerging field."},{"start":"00:01:27.173","start_ms":87173,"end":"00:01:30.294","end_ms":90294,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"I hope we can shed a bit of light on these mysterious terms."},{"start":"00:01:31.274","start_ms":91274,"end":"00:01:35.335","end_ms":95335,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"Before we dive right in, just a quick note, our podcast is listener supported."},{"start":"00:01:35.675","start_ms":95675,"end":"00:01:40.917","end_ms":100917,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"We don't have any ads. So if you enjoy the show, you might consider supporting"},{"start":"00:01:40.917","start_ms":100917,"end":"00:01:45.439","end_ms":105439,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"us. You can do this with recurring payments on patreon.com slash data stories."},{"start":"00:01:45.439","start_ms":105439,"end":"00:01:50.251","end_ms":110251,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"So then there's a little donation you do every time we publish an episode."},{"start":"00:01:50.601","start_ms":110601,"end":"00:01:55.302","end_ms":115302,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"Or you could also send us one time donations on paypal.me slash data stories."},{"start":"00:01:55.302","start_ms":115302,"end":"00:01:59.584","end_ms":119584,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"It's always much appreciated, also small amounts. It just keeps us going."},{"start":"00:01:59.584","start_ms":119584,"end":"00:02:04.806","end_ms":124806,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"And we also have a bit of cost, so any contribution you can make is super appreciated."},{"start":"00:02:05.546","start_ms":125546,"end":"00:02:12.708","end_ms":132708,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"If you don't have or don't want to do monetary support, you can also just support"},{"start":"00:02:12.708","start_ms":132708,"end":"00:02:14.729","end_ms":134729,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"us on social media or give us a good rating."},{"start":"00:02:15.349","start_ms":135349,"end":"00:02:18.230","end_ms":138230,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"Anything helps. And if not, it's also fine. Just keep listening."},{"start":"00:02:18.771","start_ms":138771,"end":"00:02:20.211","end_ms":140211,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"Anyways, let's get started."},{"start":"00:02:21.091","start_ms":141091,"end":"00:02:27.814","end_ms":147814,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"Let's dive right in. And now I can reveal our guests. our guests today are Gabrielle and Alain. Hi."},{"start":"00:02:27.814","start_ms":147814,"end":"00:02:28.714","end_ms":148714,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"Hi, Moritz."},{"start":"00:02:28.714","start_ms":148714,"end":"00:02:33.756","end_ms":153756,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"Hello. Thanks for joining me. Quick introduction. So Gabrielle,"},{"start":"00:02:33.756","start_ms":153756,"end":"00:02:35.757","end_ms":155757,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"can you tell us a bit about yourself?"},{"start":"00:02:35.757","start_ms":155757,"end":"00:02:41.840","end_ms":161840,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"Yeah. Hi, I'm Gabrielle Merite. I'm French. I'm an independent information designer."},{"start":"00:02:41.840","start_ms":161840,"end":"00:02:47.142","end_ms":167142,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"So I help ethically driven organization uncover important truth and share stories"},{"start":"00:02:47.142","start_ms":167142,"end":"00:02:49.523","end_ms":169523,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"with intention backed by data."},{"start":"00:02:50.303","start_ms":170303,"end":"00:02:56.446","end_ms":176446,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"And I'm also currently, for another month, the senior DeDeviz designer at Pentagram"},{"start":"00:02:56.446","start_ms":176446,"end":"00:02:58.386","end_ms":178386,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"in the team of Georgia Alubi."},{"start":"00:02:58.386","start_ms":178386,"end":"00:03:02.248","end_ms":182248,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"Which we also had on the show a few times and who's of course well known."},{"start":"00:03:03.088","start_ms":183088,"end":"00:03:05.649","end_ms":185649,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"And yeah, it's exciting to see you two work together."},{"start":"00:03:05.810","start_ms":185810,"end":"00:03:07.270","end_ms":187270,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"Yeah, the incredible Georgia."},{"start":"00:03:09.911","start_ms":189911,"end":"00:03:10.751","end_ms":190751,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"Ellen, how about you?"},{"start":"00:03:11.832","start_ms":191832,"end":"00:03:14.952","end_ms":194952,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"Yeah, I'm Alan Wilson. I'm a principal designer at Adobe."},{"start":"00:03:16.910","start_ms":196910,"end":"00:03:22.232","end_ms":202232,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"Where I work primarily on the experience cloud, which is Adobe's enterprise"},{"start":"00:03:22.232","start_ms":202232,"end":"00:03:28.694","end_ms":208694,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"business. We make marketing software and other tools to help large organizations"},{"start":"00:03:28.694","start_ms":208694,"end":"00:03:31.795","end_ms":211795,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"keep their messaging and help their customers."},{"start":"00:03:32.716","start_ms":212716,"end":"00:03:38.358","end_ms":218358,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"And I guess the main thing that we'll be discussing today is my contributions"},{"start":"00:03:38.358","start_ms":218358,"end":"00:03:41.879","end_ms":221879,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"to the design system at Adobe, which is called Spectrum. Right."},{"start":"00:03:41.879","start_ms":221879,"end":"00:03:47.831","end_ms":227831,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"Yes. And this is also how we got in touch around two years ago because I started"},{"start":"00:03:47.831","start_ms":227831,"end":"00:03:53.153","end_ms":233153,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"working together with Core, an agency in the UK on a design system for the World Health Organization."},{"start":"00:03:53.483","start_ms":233483,"end":"00:04:00.965","end_ms":240965,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"And yeah, and we sort of uncovered this whole world of wow, there's so much"},{"start":"00:04:00.965","start_ms":240965,"end":"00:04:02.006","end_ms":242006,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"happening in this space."},{"start":"00:04:02.006","start_ms":242006,"end":"00:04:06.507","end_ms":246507,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"And it's also really hard to orient yourself. Like it sounds so easy if somebody"},{"start":"00:04:06.507","start_ms":246507,"end":"00:04:10.249","end_ms":250249,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"says, oh, we need some database style guide or guidelines."},{"start":"00:04:10.249","start_ms":250249,"end":"00:04:12.569","end_ms":252569,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"Can you help us do that? You know, everybody's like, yeah, sure,"},{"start":"00:04:12.569","start_ms":252569,"end":"00:04:16.751","end_ms":256751,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"that sounds great. And then once you look into, oh, what do we do?"},{"start":"00:04:16.751","start_ms":256751,"end":"00:04:20.392","end_ms":260392,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"What do we actually do now? What do we offer? What's the format?"},{"start":"00:04:20.893","start_ms":260893,"end":"00:04:24.234","end_ms":264234,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"What's the scope of the whole project? You realize, oh, it's not even that clear."},{"start":"00:04:24.234","start_ms":264234,"end":"00:04:28.156","end_ms":268156,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"And everybody needs to figure out what they're doing in that space."},{"start":"00:04:29.396","start_ms":269396,"end":"00:04:34.058","end_ms":274058,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"And so, yeah, so there's so many flavors and approaches you can do."},{"start":"00:04:34.058","start_ms":274058,"end":"00:04:39.120","end_ms":279120,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"And so, yeah, I got in touch with you, Alan, and a few other folks who have"},{"start":"00:04:39.120","start_ms":279120,"end":"00:04:44.002","end_ms":284002,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"experience in the field to help us guide along a bit. And here we are."},{"start":"00:04:46.703","start_ms":286703,"end":"00:04:50.004","end_ms":290004,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"So I know both of you have been working on these types of projects."},{"start":"00:04:50.004","start_ms":290004,"end":"00:04:54.686","end_ms":294686,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"So before we go into all the nuances, what the differences between different"},{"start":"00:04:54.686","start_ms":294686,"end":"00:04:58.768","end_ms":298768,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"subgenres are, maybe we can start with the purpose."},{"start":"00:04:58.768","start_ms":298768,"end":"00:05:02.809","end_ms":302809,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"What, in your experience, do people hope to achieve when they start building"},{"start":"00:05:02.809","start_ms":302809,"end":"00:05:03.810","end_ms":303810,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"a design style guide or start formulating design guidelines?"},{"start":"00:05:03.810","start_ms":303810,"end":"00:05:08.572","end_ms":308572,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"Building a design style guide or start formulating design guidelines."},{"start":"00:05:08.992","start_ms":308992,"end":"00:05:12.729","end_ms":312729,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"What do you think? What's the hope connected to that? Or what's the value to"},{"start":"00:05:12.729","start_ms":312729,"end":"00:05:15.175","end_ms":315175,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"an organization to have something like that?"},{"start":"00:05:15.935","start_ms":315935,"end":"00:05:22.878","end_ms":322878,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"I guess I'll go first. I think the main value is answering questions, right?"},{"start":"00:05:23.918","start_ms":323918,"end":"00:05:28.700","end_ms":328700,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"As organizations grow, you have to coordinate a lot more to make sure that you"},{"start":"00:05:28.700","start_ms":328700,"end":"00:05:31.061","end_ms":331061,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"as a group have a coordinated voice."},{"start":"00:05:31.061","start_ms":331061,"end":"00:05:37.543","end_ms":337543,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"Space. Questions are very common, right? What font should I use?"},{"start":"00:05:37.543","start_ms":337543,"end":"00:05:39.164","end_ms":339164,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"What are our standard colors?"},{"start":"00:05:39.504","start_ms":339504,"end":"00:05:42.985","end_ms":342985,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"How do we lay out this particular document type?"},{"start":"00:05:46.067","start_ms":346067,"end":"00:05:49.748","end_ms":349748,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"People need standards to communicate in a unified way."},{"start":"00:05:51.469","start_ms":351469,"end":"00:05:55.971","end_ms":355971,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"One of the things I like about this space is there's just such a broad range"},{"start":"00:05:55.971","start_ms":355971,"end":"00:05:59.556","end_ms":359556,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"as you already touched on of ways to answer those questions."},{"start":"00:06:00.237","start_ms":360237,"end":"00:06:01.839","end_ms":361839,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"But for me, it's all about."},{"start":"00:06:02.821","start_ms":362821,"end":"00:06:08.603","end_ms":368603,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"Helping people do their jobs more effectively and efficiently by answering questions"},{"start":"00:06:08.603","start_ms":368603,"end":"00:06:10.623","end_ms":370623,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"that they have a difficult time answering on their own."},{"start":"00:06:10.623","start_ms":370623,"end":"00:06:11.524","end_ms":371524,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"Mm-hmm."},{"start":"00:06:11.524","start_ms":371524,"end":"00:06:12.544","end_ms":372544,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"I love that answer."},{"start":"00:06:14.145","start_ms":374145,"end":"00:06:16.546","end_ms":376546,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"Yeah, that seems pretty comprehensive already."},{"start":"00:06:16.546","start_ms":376546,"end":"00:06:20.427","end_ms":380427,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"Yeah, I had a way more like strict like dot list. Yeah."},{"start":"00:06:21.407","start_ms":381407,"end":"00:06:27.950","end_ms":387950,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"But I love that answer of answering question because I think it answers a lot on the definition."},{"start":"00:06:28.570","start_ms":388570,"end":"00:06:33.452","end_ms":393452,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"I see, on mine, I kind of see like four kind of point of values."},{"start":"00:06:35.132","start_ms":395132,"end":"00:06:38.614","end_ms":398614,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"Efficiency, just the idea of answering questions faster."},{"start":"00:06:39.514","start_ms":399514,"end":"00:06:43.815","end_ms":403815,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"So just people being able to reuse design to know what to do."},{"start":"00:06:44.336","start_ms":404336,"end":"00:06:46.096","end_ms":406096,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"All these things come into efficiency."},{"start":"00:06:48.637","start_ms":408637,"end":"00:06:51.578","end_ms":411578,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"Consistency, which I think is the one that people don't always see."},{"start":"00:06:51.578","start_ms":411578,"end":"00:06:56.320","end_ms":416320,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"But for an organization, being able to reproduce a design over and over or reuse"},{"start":"00:06:56.320","start_ms":416320,"end":"00:07:00.942","end_ms":420942,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"some time of... set of rules and principle that they can build upon, scale."},{"start":"00:07:01.962","start_ms":421962,"end":"00:07:04.123","end_ms":424123,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"And I think Alan is going to know that more than me."},{"start":"00:07:06.424","start_ms":426424,"end":"00:07:11.225","end_ms":431225,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"And then the one that I don't see often, but to add pentagram in my work that's"},{"start":"00:07:11.225","start_ms":431225,"end":"00:07:12.446","end_ms":432446,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"been pretty important, which is recognizability."},{"start":"00:07:15.227","start_ms":435227,"end":"00:07:18.668","end_ms":438668,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"So in those guidelines in Style Guide, the idea of being able to produce something"},{"start":"00:07:18.668","start_ms":438668,"end":"00:07:21.829","end_ms":441829,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"that is recognized by an audience, like brand them."},{"start":"00:07:22.250","start_ms":442250,"end":"00:07:25.891","end_ms":445891,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"And we don't talk about that often in data viz, but that's really important"},{"start":"00:07:25.891","start_ms":445891,"end":"00:07:27.691","end_ms":447691,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"to me when creating style guides."},{"start":"00:07:27.691","start_ms":447691,"end":"00:07:33.574","end_ms":453574,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"Yeah. Yeah. And in the like more branding and PR and advertising world,"},{"start":"00:07:33.574","start_ms":453574,"end":"00:07:35.674","end_ms":455674,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"brand guidelines are super common, right?"},{"start":"00:07:35.674","start_ms":455674,"end":"00:07:39.156","end_ms":459156,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"And often we just receive them as, oh, here are our brand guidelines."},{"start":"00:07:39.156","start_ms":459156,"end":"00:07:42.717","end_ms":462717,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"Can you make sure the charts, you know, fit into that?"},{"start":"00:07:42.717","start_ms":462717,"end":"00:07:48.299","end_ms":468299,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"Right. And so, yeah, that's already where we touch these wider like communication"},{"start":"00:07:48.299","start_ms":468299,"end":"00:07:52.440","end_ms":472440,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"contexts. But in this world, it's very common to have like a big book with the"},{"start":"00:07:52.440","start_ms":472440,"end":"00:07:55.507","end_ms":475507,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"fonts we use, these are the colors we have. This is how we pick photos."},{"start":"00:07:55.929","start_ms":475929,"end":"00:07:58.816","end_ms":478816,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"You don't crop photos like this, you crop them like that and so on."},{"start":"00:07:58.816","start_ms":478816,"end":"00:08:02.645","end_ms":482645,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"And yeah, I think in database it's a bit more new that we would,"},{"start":"00:08:03.314","start_ms":483314,"end":"00:08:07.536","end_ms":487536,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"be so explicit about this is our approach, right? Yeah."},{"start":"00:08:07.536","start_ms":487536,"end":"00:08:12.158","end_ms":492158,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"I think one of the reasons data is emerging more and more in the style guide"},{"start":"00:08:12.158","start_ms":492158,"end":"00:08:15.499","end_ms":495499,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"space is because people are using it more and they have more questions about it."},{"start":"00:08:16.780","start_ms":496780,"end":"00:08:20.341","end_ms":500341,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"So we're traditionally style guides focused on how you use the logo and how"},{"start":"00:08:20.341","start_ms":500341,"end":"00:08:24.042","end_ms":504042,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"you use photography and other visuals to communicate."},{"start":"00:08:24.422","start_ms":504422,"end":"00:08:28.124","end_ms":508124,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"People are using charts to communicate and they have questions about how to best do that."},{"start":"00:08:28.124","start_ms":508124,"end":"00:08:33.506","end_ms":513506,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it's a natural evolution of us actually mattering, which is good."},{"start":"00:08:33.506","start_ms":513506,"end":"00:08:38.767","end_ms":518767,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"Yeah, precisely. And there's this idea of like, you know, authority."},{"start":"00:08:39.588","start_ms":519588,"end":"00:08:44.229","end_ms":524229,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"I think in the world where trust is hard to gain, for organizations that have"},{"start":"00:08:44.229","start_ms":524229,"end":"00:08:47.771","end_ms":527771,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"gained that trust or are trying to gain that trust, having that recognizability"},{"start":"00:08:47.771","start_ms":527771,"end":"00:08:54.263","end_ms":534263,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"of like, oh, this specific data visualization is coming from this institution that I'm familiar with."},{"start":"00:08:54.573","start_ms":534573,"end":"00:08:57.534","end_ms":537534,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"And I can recognize that a very first look seems really important."},{"start":"00:08:58.635","start_ms":538635,"end":"00:08:59.975","end_ms":539975,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"In the public discourse."},{"start":"00:08:59.975","start_ms":539975,"end":"00:09:05.358","end_ms":545358,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"Yeah. Cool. So I think we have the motivation is clear."},{"start":"00:09:05.358","start_ms":545358,"end":"00:09:09.640","end_ms":549640,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"So you want consistency, you want a scale design, you want to make sure all"},{"start":"00:09:09.640","start_ms":549640,"end":"00:09:12.801","end_ms":552801,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"outputs coming from one source have a minimum level of quality,"},{"start":"00:09:12.801","start_ms":552801,"end":"00:09:17.323","end_ms":557323,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"they're recognizable, they look from the same family at least."},{"start":"00:09:21.426","start_ms":561426,"end":"00:09:27.178","end_ms":567178,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"And not have to be a mysterious process process that some gifted rock star designers"},{"start":"00:09:27.178","start_ms":567178,"end":"00:09:31.149","end_ms":571149,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"can only do, but sort of scale the capability to anybody."},{"start":"00:09:32.890","start_ms":572890,"end":"00:09:36.552","end_ms":576552,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"Ideally, right, that, oh, with the right ruleset and the right tools and the"},{"start":"00:09:36.552","start_ms":576552,"end":"00:09:41.134","end_ms":581134,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"right building blocks, anybody can now make a chart that looks like coming from"},{"start":"00:09:41.134","start_ms":581134,"end":"00:09:42.854","end_ms":582854,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"that organization and is solid."},{"start":"00:09:45.387","start_ms":585387,"end":"00:09:49.429","end_ms":589429,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"That's the hope. It's a big goal, of course. But now we're looking into,"},{"start":"00:09:49.429","start_ms":589429,"end":"00:09:51.110","end_ms":591110,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"okay, how can we enable that?"},{"start":"00:09:51.110","start_ms":591110,"end":"00:09:56.352","end_ms":596352,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"What are the things we can supply? And this is super crucial to be clear about that."},{"start":"00:09:56.352","start_ms":596352,"end":"00:10:01.374","end_ms":601374,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"That's a trap I ran into in a few projects that we weren't really clear what"},{"start":"00:10:01.374","start_ms":601374,"end":"00:10:05.636","end_ms":605636,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"the difference is between a style guide or a guidelines or a component system."},{"start":"00:10:05.636","start_ms":605636,"end":"00:10:09.417","end_ms":609417,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"System. I like all these things. And then you realize, oh, they actually wanted"},{"start":"00:10:09.417","start_ms":609417,"end":"00:10:13.839","end_ms":613839,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"to have a big book with lots of data with do's and don'ts."},{"start":"00:10:13.839","start_ms":613839,"end":"00:10:17.241","end_ms":617241,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"And we were like, oh, we thought we're just designing a database theme,"},{"start":"00:10:17.241","start_ms":617241,"end":"00:10:19.181","end_ms":619181,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"like pick some colors, right."},{"start":"00:10:19.181","start_ms":619181,"end":"00:10:24.263","end_ms":624263,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"And so there's a whole spectrum of possible outputs you can have, right."},{"start":"00:10:24.263","start_ms":624263,"end":"00:10:27.885","end_ms":627885,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"And maybe let's talk about a few of them."},{"start":"00:10:27.885","start_ms":627885,"end":"00:10:32.747","end_ms":632747,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"And I try to organize it from small to big. So I think the smallest thing is"},{"start":"00:10:32.747","start_ms":632747,"end":"00:10:37.570","end_ms":637570,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"probably like a design theme, where you say like, these are the colors and fonts"},{"start":"00:10:37.570","start_ms":637570,"end":"00:10:41.051","end_ms":641051,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"you can use for a given charge or something like this."},{"start":"00:10:41.852","start_ms":641852,"end":"00:10:45.734","end_ms":645734,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"And maybe a brand has multiple themes like a light theme and a dark theme."},{"start":"00:10:46.495","start_ms":646495,"end":"00:10:51.037","end_ms":651037,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"It's like a skin you can apply to a chart like an Excel template type thing maybe."},{"start":"00:10:52.658","start_ms":652658,"end":"00:10:57.880","end_ms":657880,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"Then the next step is maybe a design system. Alan, is Spectrum a design system?"},{"start":"00:10:58.221","start_ms":658221,"end":"00:10:59.661","end_ms":659661,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"Where's Spectrum on that ladder?"},{"start":"00:10:59.661","start_ms":659661,"end":"00:11:04.384","end_ms":664384,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"Yeah, Spectrum is a design system and I would put it further down,"},{"start":"00:11:04.384","start_ms":664384,"end":"00:11:06.565","end_ms":666565,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"maybe even at the very bottom."},{"start":"00:11:06.565","start_ms":666565,"end":"00:11:09.907","end_ms":669907,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"At the bottom. I'm also in the bottom."},{"start":"00:11:09.907","start_ms":669907,"end":"00:11:10.207","end_ms":670207,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"Yeah."},{"start":"00:11:13.099","start_ms":673099,"end":"00:11:16.260","end_ms":676260,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"When I think design system, I think the difference between"},{"start":"00:11:16.260","start_ms":676260,"end":"00:11:19.201","end_ms":679201,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"a design system and a style guide or a theme"},{"start":"00:11:19.201","start_ms":679201,"end":"00:11:24.663","end_ms":684663,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"or just a set of guidelines is a design system has infrastructure behind it"},{"start":"00:11:24.663","start_ms":684663,"end":"00:11:31.646","end_ms":691646,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"So that when you make a change those changes roll out into all the places that"},{"start":"00:11:31.646","start_ms":691646,"end":"00:11:37.988","end_ms":697988,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"they need to maybe there's also software components that exactly implement that stuff and Yeah,"},{"start":"00:11:37.988","start_ms":697988,"end":"00:11:42.970","end_ms":702970,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"yeah And it provides resources for all parties that are involved."},{"start":"00:11:42.970","start_ms":702970,"end":"00:11:46.091","end_ms":706091,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"So the designers get the design assets they need,"},{"start":"00:11:46.091","start_ms":706091,"end":"00:11:50.123","end_ms":710123,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"the engineers have the engineering components that they're going to use,"},{"start":"00:11:50.123","start_ms":710123,"end":"00:11:55.575","end_ms":715575,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"and anyone else in the organization has the guidelines and materials,"},{"start":"00:11:55.575","start_ms":715575,"end":"00:11:58.496","end_ms":718496,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"templates, things they need to do their work."},{"start":"00:11:59.556","start_ms":719556,"end":"00:12:04.858","end_ms":724858,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"And so, okay, cool. So we have design themes, automated in the design system,"},{"start":"00:12:04.858","start_ms":724858,"end":"00:12:05.738","end_ms":725738,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"and super well documented."},{"start":"00:12:06.639","start_ms":726639,"end":"00:12:09.200","end_ms":729200,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"So then how about guidelines and style guides?"},{"start":"00:12:09.940","start_ms":729940,"end":"00:12:14.062","end_ms":734062,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"How does that fit in? I don't know how Alan feels about it to me."},{"start":"00:12:14.062","start_ms":734062,"end":"00:12:18.803","end_ms":738803,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"So I work hard on that one. I was like, is there a difference between guidelines and style guides?"},{"start":"00:12:19.424","start_ms":739424,"end":"00:12:23.225","end_ms":743225,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"And I think we use it pretty freely in the design world."},{"start":"00:12:23.225","start_ms":743225,"end":"00:12:27.927","end_ms":747927,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"It kind of, we use it, at least in the, you know, bright side of things,"},{"start":"00:12:27.927","start_ms":747927,"end":"00:12:30.488","end_ms":750488,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"we use it kind of like whatever, we can exchange them."},{"start":"00:12:30.488","start_ms":750488,"end":"00:12:33.649","end_ms":753649,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"However, I could see a difference where for me, like one guideline could be"},{"start":"00:12:33.649","start_ms":753649,"end":"00:12:38.390","end_ms":758390,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"like do and don'ts versus a style guide is kind of putting all those guidelines together."},{"start":"00:12:39.551","start_ms":759551,"end":"00:12:43.753","end_ms":763753,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"So to me, style guide is a collection of rule. You know, it tells you what you're"},{"start":"00:12:43.753","start_ms":763753,"end":"00:12:46.153","end_ms":766153,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"allowed to do and not to do given a context."},{"start":"00:12:48.465","start_ms":768465,"end":"00:12:52.056","end_ms":772056,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"And I guess I'm going to go one step further, but there's to me,"},{"start":"00:12:52.056","start_ms":772056,"end":"00:12:56.177","end_ms":776177,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"the style guide, if you think about, if you remove style and you just keep guide,"},{"start":"00:12:56.177","start_ms":776177,"end":"00:13:00.979","end_ms":780979,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"then you can also include elements of voice again, to that branding element."},{"start":"00:13:00.979","start_ms":780979,"end":"00:13:04.700","end_ms":784700,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"So not just doing dance on design, on color choices, but yes,"},{"start":"00:13:04.700","start_ms":784700,"end":"00:13:07.621","end_ms":787621,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"on tonality, on content, on way"},{"start":"00:13:07.621","start_ms":787621,"end":"00:13:12.443","end_ms":792443,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"more than just the look and feel and the practicality of design elements."},{"start":"00:13:12.443","start_ms":792443,"end":"00:13:15.044","end_ms":795044,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"So that's how I see the difference in guideline and style guides,"},{"start":"00:13:15.044","start_ms":795044,"end":"00:13:18.765","end_ms":798765,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"but in the design world, we definitely use them almost as exchangeable."},{"start":"00:13:19.466","start_ms":799466,"end":"00:13:22.787","end_ms":802787,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"And that part cannot be automated or implemented well in software,"},{"start":"00:13:22.787","start_ms":802787,"end":"00:13:25.847","end_ms":805847,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"right? Like, how do you automate tonality?"},{"start":"00:13:27.269","start_ms":807269,"end":"00:13:33.891","end_ms":813891,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"Can you? I don't know. But at least, let's say, a style guide or design guidelines"},{"start":"00:13:33.891","start_ms":813891,"end":"00:13:38.113","end_ms":818113,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"are usually targeted at people making charts. Right? Is that fair to say?"},{"start":"00:13:38.113","start_ms":818113,"end":"00:13:41.674","end_ms":821674,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"I mean, I think all of these are targeted at people making charts."},{"start":"00:13:41.674","start_ms":821674,"end":"00:13:47.116","end_ms":827116,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"But to Gabriel's point, some focus more on the aesthetic part of the problems"},{"start":"00:13:47.116","start_ms":827116,"end":"00:13:48.376","end_ms":828376,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"and the aesthetic questions."},{"start":"00:13:48.817","start_ms":828817,"end":"00:13:54.338","end_ms":834338,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"And others focus on the technical questions and implementations and things and"},{"start":"00:13:54.338","start_ms":834338,"end":"00:13:55.859","end_ms":835859,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"systemize things a bit more."},{"start":"00:13:55.859","start_ms":835859,"end":"00:13:56.159","end_ms":836159,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"More."},{"start":"00:13:59.220","start_ms":839220,"end":"00:14:04.161","end_ms":844161,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"Yeah, so you can see already, it's this muddy mess of people,"},{"start":"00:14:04.161","start_ms":844161,"end":"00:14:05.061","end_ms":845061,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"machines, data, audiences."},{"start":"00:14:08.963","start_ms":848963,"end":"00:14:12.965","end_ms":852965,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"It's an exciting space. And then really think about, okay, how can we abstract"},{"start":"00:14:12.965","start_ms":852965,"end":"00:14:17.246","end_ms":857246,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"principles there and re-covering rules and not just solve problems once,"},{"start":"00:14:17.246","start_ms":857246,"end":"00:14:22.568","end_ms":862568,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"but more or less for once and all, which is of course the hard part."},{"start":"00:14:23.588","start_ms":863588,"end":"00:14:27.370","end_ms":867370,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"It's funny because it reminds me of what Alan was saying about the design system."},{"start":"00:14:29.090","start_ms":869090,"end":"00:14:33.185","end_ms":873185,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"So at least just like Alain had placed it at the end, to me it's what encompasses"},{"start":"00:14:33.185","start_ms":873185,"end":"00:14:37.193","end_ms":877193,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"everything, including Style Guide, but also design theme, design language,"},{"start":"00:14:37.193","start_ms":877193,"end":"00:14:41.815","end_ms":881815,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"like the actual components and little design elements, like templates that you may have created."},{"start":"00:14:42.535","start_ms":882535,"end":"00:14:47.897","end_ms":887897,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"And I would call it a repository of institutional knowledge that solves problems,"},{"start":"00:14:47.897","start_ms":887897,"end":"00:14:51.058","end_ms":891058,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"that keeps happening. Like that's how I would define it probably without even"},{"start":"00:14:51.058","start_ms":891058,"end":"00:14:52.618","end_ms":892618,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"putting like what it is inside."},{"start":"00:14:53.619","start_ms":893619,"end":"00:14:58.941","end_ms":898941,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"It's just a big, big, big repository and it can be flexible depending on your institution."},{"start":"00:14:58.941","start_ms":898941,"end":"00:15:00.702","end_ms":900702,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"Yeah, right."},{"start":"00:15:00.702","start_ms":900702,"end":"00:15:09.366","end_ms":909366,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"Yeah. I think another thing worth calling out is that sometimes data visualization is its own thing."},{"start":"00:15:09.366","start_ms":909366,"end":"00:15:13.488","end_ms":913488,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"There is a datavis style guide, and it lives up separate from the brand guide"},{"start":"00:15:13.488","start_ms":913488,"end":"00:15:16.759","end_ms":916759,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"and the user interface guidelines and other resources."},{"start":"00:15:18.611","start_ms":918611,"end":"00:15:23.213","end_ms":923213,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"But more and more, we're seeing all three of those things. And other things as well come to,"},{"start":"00:15:35.319","start_ms":935319,"end":"00:15:37.799","end_ms":937799,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"content guidelines in important ways that we need to account for."},{"start":"00:15:37.799","start_ms":937799,"end":"00:15:38.399","end_ms":938399,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"Yeah. Yeah."},{"start":"00:15:40.208","start_ms":940208,"end":"00:15:45.070","end_ms":945070,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"Yeah, so there's a lot of overlaps with adjacent, maybe other design systems,"},{"start":"00:15:45.070","start_ms":945070,"end":"00:15:49.952","end_ms":949952,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"like the branding or the UI design, and we need to see how we fit in with all of that."},{"start":"00:15:51.213","start_ms":951213,"end":"00:15:56.955","end_ms":956955,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"I guess what's unique to data visualization is often the extra design vocabulary you need,"},{"start":"00:15:56.955","start_ms":956955,"end":"00:16:02.557","end_ms":962557,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"like specific color scales that work, have certain functional properties or"},{"start":"00:16:02.557","start_ms":962557,"end":"00:16:09.400","end_ms":969400,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"or chart types and all the things we're all familiar with, legends and axes and whatnot."},{"start":"00:16:10.600","start_ms":970600,"end":"00:16:14.882","end_ms":974882,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"Yeah, one of the challenges with writing guidelines for data is that differs"},{"start":"00:16:14.882","start_ms":974882,"end":"00:16:21.564","end_ms":981564,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"from brand guidelines and others is some of the other areas are just self-evident"},{"start":"00:16:21.564","start_ms":981564,"end":"00:16:23.645","end_ms":983645,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"and really easy to explain the guidelines for."},{"start":"00:16:24.266","start_ms":984266,"end":"00:16:29.207","end_ms":989207,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"And data visualization has its own language and its own set of things."},{"start":"00:16:30.588","start_ms":990588,"end":"00:16:36.890","end_ms":996890,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"I mean, it intersects with data literacy and some specific domain expertise"},{"start":"00:16:36.890","start_ms":996890,"end":"00:16:38.801","end_ms":998801,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"that you might need to be effective."},{"start":"00:16:40.052","start_ms":1000052,"end":"00:16:43.092","end_ms":1003092,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"And often I find myself in writing the guidelines, I'm like,"},{"start":"00:16:43.092","start_ms":1003092,"end":"00:16:45.994","end_ms":1005994,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"man, I need them also to read these books."},{"start":"00:16:45.994","start_ms":1005994,"end":"00:16:51.375","end_ms":1011375,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"Or I find myself wanting to teach data visualization as a discipline,"},{"start":"00:16:51.375","start_ms":1011375,"end":"00:16:55.517","end_ms":1015517,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"and then I can give them guidelines on how to best use visualization."},{"start":"00:16:56.898","start_ms":1016898,"end":"00:17:01.559","end_ms":1021559,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"And if you don't have that foundation, sometimes the guidelines come off a bit"},{"start":"00:17:01.559","start_ms":1021559,"end":"00:17:03.420","end_ms":1023420,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"short because they have to be so basic."},{"start":"00:17:05.200","start_ms":1025200,"end":"00:17:06.280","end_ms":1026280,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"Yeah, same problem here."},{"start":"00:17:07.621","start_ms":1027621,"end":"00:17:11.823","end_ms":1031823,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"Yeah, and maybe that's the first real learning I think we all share probably"},{"start":"00:17:11.823","start_ms":1031823,"end":"00:17:15.924","end_ms":1035924,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"is like, you really need to define really well what the purpose of the whole"},{"start":"00:17:15.924","start_ms":1035924,"end":"00:17:18.345","end_ms":1038345,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"thing is and what your audience is."},{"start":"00:17:18.345","start_ms":1038345,"end":"00:17:23.297","end_ms":1043297,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"Like, is it skilled information designers that use it or should it be implemented"},{"start":"00:17:23.297","start_ms":1043297,"end":"00:17:27.508","end_ms":1047508,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"in an automated system or should it be for total novices,"},{"start":"00:17:27.508","start_ms":1047508,"end":"00:17:32.030","end_ms":1052030,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"like a foolproof system, because that will shape everything in terms of what"},{"start":"00:17:32.030","start_ms":1052030,"end":"00:17:35.231","end_ms":1055231,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"do we even supply people with and in which form, right?"},{"start":"00:17:35.231","start_ms":1055231,"end":"00:17:40.394","end_ms":1060394,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"And yeah, I think if you skip that step, it's going to fall on your feet really soon."},{"start":"00:17:42.315","start_ms":1062315,"end":"00:17:44.115","end_ms":1064115,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"That's my experience at least."},{"start":"00:17:46.937","start_ms":1066937,"end":"00:17:51.058","end_ms":1071058,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"But maybe to make this a bit more concrete, maybe we can talk about some of"},{"start":"00:17:51.058","start_ms":1071058,"end":"00:17:53.239","end_ms":1073239,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"the projects you've been working on in that space."},{"start":"00:17:53.239","start_ms":1073239,"end":"00:17:57.541","end_ms":1077541,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"That gives people a bit of an idea of, okay, what are the different challenges"},{"start":"00:17:57.541","start_ms":1077541,"end":"00:18:02.323","end_ms":1082323,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"and the different types of flavors that exist? So, Alan, do you want to talk"},{"start":"00:18:02.323","start_ms":1082323,"end":"00:18:03.623","end_ms":1083623,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"a bit about Adobe Spectrum?"},{"start":"00:18:03.623","start_ms":1083623,"end":"00:18:09.646","end_ms":1089646,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"Sure, sure. So Adobe Spectrum is our design system."},{"start":"00:18:10.627","start_ms":1090627,"end":"00:18:13.167","end_ms":1093167,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"If you want to take a look at it, you can find it at spectrum.adobe.com. And,"},{"start":"00:18:18.054","start_ms":1098054,"end":"00:18:20.875","end_ms":1100875,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"Yeah, the first thing I want to point out is that it's a whole team."},{"start":"00:18:20.875","start_ms":1100875,"end":"00:18:22.316","end_ms":1102316,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"There's a lot of people involved."},{"start":"00:18:22.696","start_ms":1102696,"end":"00:18:28.738","end_ms":1108738,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"And so I am a small piece of that whole ecosystem that builds and maintains that."},{"start":"00:18:30.939","start_ms":1110939,"end":"00:18:35.501","end_ms":1115501,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"And the design system was about two years old before we introduced the data viz guidelines."},{"start":"00:18:36.721","start_ms":1116721,"end":"00:18:40.943","end_ms":1120943,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"We really struggled to articulate and structure the guidelines in a way that"},{"start":"00:18:40.943","start_ms":1120943,"end":"00:18:43.644","end_ms":1123644,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"would make sense and be relevant to our users."},{"start":"00:18:44.704","start_ms":1124704,"end":"00:18:47.445","end_ms":1127445,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"And we still have a long way to go. I feel like the guidelines right now are"},{"start":"00:18:47.445","start_ms":1127445,"end":"00:18:53.828","end_ms":1133828,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"pretty basic, but yeah, we have that. And the primary purpose of our guideline"},{"start":"00:18:53.828","start_ms":1133828,"end":"00:18:56.048","end_ms":1136048,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"is to help people who are building software."},{"start":"00:18:56.048","start_ms":1136048,"end":"00:18:57.089","end_ms":1137089,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"Right."},{"start":"00:18:57.089","start_ms":1137089,"end":"00:19:03.131","end_ms":1143131,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"So it is used for our, you know, dot com website and some other things,"},{"start":"00:19:03.131","start_ms":1143131,"end":"00:19:09.133","end_ms":1149133,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"but the primary focus is for how do we build, you know, really good software using that system."},{"start":"00:19:09.133","start_ms":1149133,"end":"00:19:11.914","end_ms":1151914,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"Cool. Gabrielle, how about you?"},{"start":"00:19:11.914","start_ms":1151914,"end":"00:19:16.442","end_ms":1156442,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"So I worked on quite a couple and I can't talk about everything."},{"start":"00:19:16.884","start_ms":1156884,"end":"00:19:18.988","end_ms":1158988,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"So I'll talk about the one I'm publicly allowed to."},{"start":"00:19:19.910","start_ms":1159910,"end":"00:19:23.075","end_ms":1163075,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"I think the one that's the most public that you can see on the pentagram website"},{"start":"00:19:23.075","start_ms":1163075,"end":"00:19:24.338","end_ms":1164338,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"is the Deloitte insight."},{"start":"00:19:25.904","start_ms":1165904,"end":"00:19:28.524","end_ms":1168524,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"It's a guideline and templates, so it's not full design systems."},{"start":"00:19:29.645","start_ms":1169645,"end":"00:19:31.446","end_ms":1171446,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"And so, DeLaw Insight is a magazine."},{"start":"00:19:31.806","start_ms":1171806,"end":"00:19:34.187","end_ms":1174187,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"It also has a web platform attached to it."},{"start":"00:19:36.028","start_ms":1176028,"end":"00:19:39.309","end_ms":1179309,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"And previously, before I even joined Pentagram, the team with George Ilobby"},{"start":"00:19:39.309","start_ms":1179309,"end":"00:19:42.270","end_ms":1182270,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"had actually built guidelines for them before editorial database."},{"start":"00:19:43.110","start_ms":1183110,"end":"00:19:47.052","end_ms":1187052,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"So, we're more creative application. So, that was used only by information designer"},{"start":"00:19:47.052","start_ms":1187052,"end":"00:19:49.673","end_ms":1189673,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"that already knew the roles and were pretty comfortable with it."},{"start":"00:19:50.273","start_ms":1190273,"end":"00:19:54.775","end_ms":1194775,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"Talking about audience here. And the issue that came back when they came back"},{"start":"00:19:54.775","start_ms":1194775,"end":"00:19:58.616","end_ms":1198616,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"was that we cannot give those guidelines pretty much to our normal designers."},{"start":"00:19:58.616","start_ms":1198616,"end":"00:20:04.789","end_ms":1204789,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"So the team actually use external, a lot of external designers that are around"},{"start":"00:20:04.789","start_ms":1204789,"end":"00:20:07.620","end_ms":1207620,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"the world with different backgrounds from different countries."},{"start":"00:20:07.620","start_ms":1207620,"end":"00:20:10.841","end_ms":1210841,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"And they produce like hundreds of data viz per month."},{"start":"00:20:11.581","start_ms":1211581,"end":"00:20:16.663","end_ms":1216663,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"And they're quite fast, so fast turnaround, you know, little supervision."},{"start":"00:20:16.983","start_ms":1216983,"end":"00:20:20.905","end_ms":1220905,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"So we were in contact with more of the creative direction marketing data this"},{"start":"00:20:20.905","start_ms":1220905,"end":"00:20:24.926","end_ms":1224926,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"team within the organization, not so much the designers."},{"start":"00:20:25.327","start_ms":1225327,"end":"00:20:30.558","end_ms":1230558,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"So we had to create templates and guidelines knowing that we have no contact"},{"start":"00:20:30.558","start_ms":1230558,"end":"00:20:32.529","end_ms":1232529,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"with the final designer that's going to use them."},{"start":"00:20:33.010","start_ms":1233010,"end":"00:20:37.531","end_ms":1237531,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"And they are not specialized in information design, not always at least."},{"start":"00:20:37.531","start_ms":1237531,"end":"00:20:40.812","end_ms":1240812,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"And they have a high turnaround themselves because they're external contractors."},{"start":"00:20:41.793","start_ms":1241793,"end":"00:20:43.093","end_ms":1243093,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"So it had to be pretty... It's really"},{"start":"00:20:43.093","start_ms":1243093,"end":"00:20:46.494","end_ms":1246494,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"hard mode. It's like all the hard parameters are switched on, right?"},{"start":"00:20:46.655","start_ms":1246655,"end":"00:20:52.697","end_ms":1252697,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"Yeah, it had to be pretty strict. And also, we were working for both web and print."},{"start":"00:20:52.697","start_ms":1252697,"end":"00:20:53.617","end_ms":1253617,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"Of course."},{"start":"00:20:53.617","start_ms":1253617,"end":"00:20:56.538","end_ms":1256538,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"Why not? So just to add a little bit to that."},{"start":"00:20:56.538","start_ms":1256538,"end":"00:20:58.999","end_ms":1258999,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"So yeah, and a bit of spice, you know."},{"start":"00:20:58.999","start_ms":1258999,"end":"00:21:02.921","end_ms":1262921,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"And the law inside covers any themes, so it can be any type of data,"},{"start":"00:21:02.921","start_ms":1262921,"end":"00:21:06.462","end_ms":1266462,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"whether it's about people, but you know, economic, like anything,"},{"start":"00:21:06.462","start_ms":1266462,"end":"00:21:09.263","end_ms":1269263,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"everything, throw it in together in one package."},{"start":"00:21:10.204","start_ms":1270204,"end":"00:21:15.605","end_ms":1275605,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"So that was probably one that I can talk quite a bit on. And the other one is"},{"start":"00:21:15.605","start_ms":1275605,"end":"00:21:18.126","end_ms":1278126,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"for a nonprofit organization that I cannot name."},{"start":"00:21:18.707","start_ms":1278707,"end":"00:21:22.928","end_ms":1282928,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"They work in the gender equality space. And this one was tricky because we had"},{"start":"00:21:22.928","start_ms":1282928,"end":"00:21:26.729","end_ms":1286729,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"to do it and they hadn't produced any work yet."},{"start":"00:21:27.350","start_ms":1287350,"end":"00:21:33.112","end_ms":1293112,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"It was made simultaneously to a brand. And so they knew what type of data they were working with."},{"start":"00:21:33.932","start_ms":1293932,"end":"00:21:37.433","end_ms":1297433,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"But they had not produced anything. So we didn't have anything to even review."},{"start":"00:21:37.433","start_ms":1297433,"end":"00:21:41.535","end_ms":1301535,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"We had to do from start and we had to make sure it would be used by designers"},{"start":"00:21:41.535","start_ms":1301535,"end":"00:21:46.076","end_ms":1306076,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"and non-designers for social media, PowerPoints, anything possible."},{"start":"00:21:46.817","start_ms":1306817,"end":"00:21:50.618","end_ms":1310618,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"So that was another challenge on really sensitive topics too."},{"start":"00:21:50.618","start_ms":1310618,"end":"00:21:53.519","end_ms":1313519,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"So definitely interesting different challenges here."},{"start":"00:21:55.060","start_ms":1315060,"end":"00:22:00.121","end_ms":1320121,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"Yeah, so you can see already it's quite different requirements and you need"},{"start":"00:22:00.121","start_ms":1320121,"end":"00:22:04.783","end_ms":1324783,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"to be smart about what you do, right? And how that will play out."},{"start":"00:22:04.783","start_ms":1324783,"end":"00:22:08.937","end_ms":1328937,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"So maybe talking about process, then how do you..."},{"start":"00:22:10.721","start_ms":1330721,"end":"00:22:15.103","end_ms":1335103,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"Address this? Like, do you first build a lot of chart examples,"},{"start":"00:22:15.103","start_ms":1335103,"end":"00:22:19.064","end_ms":1339064,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"like in your design team, and then say like, okay, what are the recurring patterns?"},{"start":"00:22:19.064","start_ms":1339064,"end":"00:22:23.876","end_ms":1343876,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"What seems to work? What doesn't seem to work? Or do you do it more top down in terms of,"},{"start":"00:22:23.876","start_ms":1343876,"end":"00:22:27.399","end_ms":1347399,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"okay, we have the following principles, we have the following project constraints,"},{"start":"00:22:27.399","start_ms":1347399,"end":"00:22:31.249","end_ms":1351249,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"you know, and sort of do it very like deductive in the sense that,"},{"start":"00:22:31.249","start_ms":1351249,"end":"00:22:37.071","end_ms":1357071,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"okay, only one solution, you know, seems to work anymore, now that we have like defined everything?"},{"start":"00:22:37.632","start_ms":1357632,"end":"00:22:43.153","end_ms":1363153,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"Or is it a mixture? Like, how did you address these? How did you approach this"},{"start":"00:22:43.153","start_ms":1363153,"end":"00:22:45.014","end_ms":1365014,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"project? Maybe Gabby, you can."},{"start":"00:22:45.454","start_ms":1365454,"end":"00:22:49.676","end_ms":1369676,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"Okay, I'll start. It might be very different because we so we even me as an"},{"start":"00:22:49.676","start_ms":1369676,"end":"00:22:52.637","end_ms":1372637,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"independent or within Pentagram, we are external contractors."},{"start":"00:22:53.457","start_ms":1373457,"end":"00:22:56.938","end_ms":1376938,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"So we don't have access to everything internally in the organization that might"},{"start":"00:22:56.938","start_ms":1376938,"end":"00:22:59.439","end_ms":1379439,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"be quite different than the way Alan works typically."},{"start":"00:23:00.980","start_ms":1380980,"end":"00:23:04.201","end_ms":1384201,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"So the way I like to work is I start with what I call analysis phase,"},{"start":"00:23:04.201","start_ms":1384201,"end":"00:23:08.683","end_ms":1388683,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"which is just looking at obviously who the organization is."},{"start":"00:23:08.683","start_ms":1388683,"end":"00:23:11.984","end_ms":1391984,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"The more classic design brief analysis of who the client is,"},{"start":"00:23:11.984","start_ms":1391984,"end":"00:23:14.725","end_ms":1394725,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"what do they know, what do they don't know."},{"start":"00:23:14.725","start_ms":1394725,"end":"00:23:17.966","end_ms":1397966,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"So if they have data visits, it's great because it gives you a great insight"},{"start":"00:23:17.966","start_ms":1397966,"end":"00:23:20.647","end_ms":1400647,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"on what has been produced, what type of data do they work with,"},{"start":"00:23:20.647","start_ms":1400647,"end":"00:23:23.888","end_ms":1403888,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"what are the mistakes they keep making, what are the problems they keep."},{"start":"00:23:23.888","start_ms":1403888,"end":"00:23:26.409","end_ms":1406409,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"You can even have a whole almost user research phase."},{"start":"00:23:26.409","start_ms":1406409,"end":"00:23:30.450","end_ms":1410450,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"So the idea is to... First the diagnosis, then the prescription, right?"},{"start":"00:23:32.731","start_ms":1412731,"end":"00:23:36.372","end_ms":1416372,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"Yeah, a little bit. But just identifying existing useful patterns,"},{"start":"00:23:36.372","start_ms":1416372,"end":"00:23:40.854","end_ms":1420854,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"things that have worked too and things that are not working in the current applications,"},{"start":"00:23:40.854","start_ms":1420854,"end":"00:23:42.435","end_ms":1422435,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"and who is working with it."},{"start":"00:23:42.435","start_ms":1422435,"end":"00:23:45.276","end_ms":1425276,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"It's way harder when we have a project, like I was talking earlier,"},{"start":"00:23:45.276","start_ms":1425276,"end":"00:23:49.737","end_ms":1429737,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"where we don't have access to those existing applications, because there's none."},{"start":"00:23:51.278","start_ms":1431278,"end":"00:23:54.129","end_ms":1434129,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"But there's always a base somewhere of what data are they going to use?"},{"start":"00:23:54.619","start_ms":1434619,"end":"00:23:55.959","end_ms":1435959,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"Where is it going to be published?"},{"start":"00:23:56.640","start_ms":1436640,"end":"00:24:00.241","end_ms":1440241,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"So I like the science in space and understanding, again, who is going to use the guidelines and,"},{"start":"00:24:02.164","start_ms":1442164,"end":"00:24:05.065","end_ms":1445065,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"This is the audience of the guidelines. So is it designer or non-designer?"},{"start":"00:24:05.385","start_ms":1445385,"end":"00:24:06.925","end_ms":1446925,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"Because it's not always for designer."},{"start":"00:24:07.406","start_ms":1447406,"end":"00:24:10.587","end_ms":1450587,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"But also who's the final audience of the data visualization?"},{"start":"00:24:11.007","start_ms":1451007,"end":"00:24:12.687","end_ms":1452687,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"So there's a second layer."},{"start":"00:24:12.687","start_ms":1452687,"end":"00:24:13.808","end_ms":1453808,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"It's a double hop."},{"start":"00:24:14.388","start_ms":1454388,"end":"00:24:18.870","end_ms":1458870,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"Yeah, there's a double hop here of like, OK, typically, if you work for a nonprofit,"},{"start":"00:24:18.870","start_ms":1458870,"end":"00:24:22.231","end_ms":1462231,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"the final product is going to be a public, a very uninformed public,"},{"start":"00:24:22.231","start_ms":1462231,"end":"00:24:26.152","end_ms":1466152,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"or on a sensitive topic. So what are the constraints already that I impose on"},{"start":"00:24:26.152","start_ms":1466152,"end":"00:24:28.683","end_ms":1468683,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"the project? So there's all this analysis phase."},{"start":"00:24:29.394","start_ms":1469394,"end":"00:24:33.155","end_ms":1473155,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"And then I guess it's a bit of a mix match. What I like to do is a bit more of like,"},{"start":"00:24:33.155","start_ms":1473155,"end":"00:24:38.997","end_ms":1478997,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"if it doesn't exist anymore, it's kind of like doing design first and then link"},{"start":"00:24:38.997","start_ms":1478997,"end":"00:24:43.979","end_ms":1483979,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"that back to the foundation of, I find it difficult to build the foundation"},{"start":"00:24:43.979","start_ms":1483979,"end":"00:24:45.679","end_ms":1485679,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"first, decide the colors, everything"},{"start":"00:24:45.679","start_ms":1485679,"end":"00:24:47.860","end_ms":1487860,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"without testing them, because you're gonna end up changing them."},{"start":"00:24:48.220","start_ms":1488220,"end":"00:24:51.861","end_ms":1491861,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"So I tend to, even if the project doesn't include making templates,"},{"start":"00:24:51.861","start_ms":1491861,"end":"00:24:55.143","end_ms":1495143,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"kind of templatize a little bit, like test out some basic charts or things they"},{"start":"00:24:55.143","start_ms":1495143,"end":"00:25:00.224","end_ms":1500224,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"use regularly to see if we can start finding patterns and put that back into guidelines."},{"start":"00:25:01.605","start_ms":1501605,"end":"00:25:06.407","end_ms":1506407,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"So that's kind of how it works. The only added thing that I do and then Pentagram"},{"start":"00:25:06.407","start_ms":1506407,"end":"00:25:10.328","end_ms":1510328,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"does too is what we call creative direction, which is maybe a little different"},{"start":"00:25:10.328","start_ms":1510328,"end":"00:25:11.708","end_ms":1511708,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"than a traditional style gal,"},{"start":"00:25:11.708","start_ms":1511708,"end":"00:25:15.930","end_ms":1515930,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"which we're trying to find what makes those these evolutions stand out."},{"start":"00:25:15.930","start_ms":1515930,"end":"00:25:20.311","end_ms":1520311,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"How do we connect them to the voice of the brand?"},{"start":"00:25:21.472","start_ms":1521472,"end":"00:25:25.593","end_ms":1525593,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"And so it's not just through just colors and typefaces, but is there something"},{"start":"00:25:25.593","start_ms":1525593,"end":"00:25:28.674","end_ms":1528674,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"specific, a specific way of a specific shape you use systematically."},{"start":"00:25:29.915","start_ms":1529915,"end":"00:25:31.455","end_ms":1531455,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"So not just basic charts."},{"start":"00:25:31.455","start_ms":1531455,"end":"00:25:36.417","end_ms":1536417,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"Like an actual design idea in a sense that there is, there's like a design approach to it."},{"start":"00:25:36.417","start_ms":1536417,"end":"00:25:39.878","end_ms":1539878,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"Is there a metaphor that we can use throughout? Is there something that makes"},{"start":"00:25:39.878","start_ms":1539878,"end":"00:25:43.719","end_ms":1543719,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"it stand out that's just not a design decision, but that makes it unique?"},{"start":"00:25:44.039","start_ms":1544039,"end":"00:25:47.641","end_ms":1547641,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"And so that is a little more, on the creative side, that's less common."},{"start":"00:25:47.801","start_ms":1547801,"end":"00:25:51.962","end_ms":1551962,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"And then it's even harder to explain in Style Guides. But it's part of that"},{"start":"00:25:51.962","start_ms":1551962,"end":"00:25:55.283","end_ms":1555283,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"thinking. And then usually you test that on basic chart and then you test that"},{"start":"00:25:55.283","start_ms":1555283,"end":"00:26:00.424","end_ms":1560424,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"on editorialized charts because all client usually needs editorial charts and not the most basic."},{"start":"00:26:00.500","start_ms":1560500,"end":"00:26:04.282","end_ms":1564282,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"You know, the most traditional charts, just to check if it works in conjunction"},{"start":"00:26:04.282","start_ms":1564282,"end":"00:26:08.143","end_ms":1568143,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"with other organizational systems, like does it work in a magazine spread,"},{"start":"00:26:08.143","start_ms":1568143,"end":"00:26:09.644","end_ms":1569644,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"does it work in social media format?"},{"start":"00:26:11.104","start_ms":1571104,"end":"00:26:15.846","end_ms":1575846,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"And then we systemize that and we put that all together in like extended guidelines."},{"start":"00:26:15.846","start_ms":1575846,"end":"00:26:19.927","end_ms":1579927,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"Yeah, but there's an interesting tension because of course you and Georgia of"},{"start":"00:26:19.927","start_ms":1579927,"end":"00:26:24.049","end_ms":1584049,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"course are typically known and booked for a super creative, unique,"},{"start":"00:26:24.049","start_ms":1584049,"end":"00:26:26.350","end_ms":1586350,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"one of a kind work, right?"},{"start":"00:26:26.350","start_ms":1586350,"end":"00:26:32.432","end_ms":1592432,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"And now the expectation is you do that, but also make it repeatable. Right?"},{"start":"00:26:32.892","start_ms":1592892,"end":"00:26:35.253","end_ms":1595253,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"And so I think there's an interesting tension there."},{"start":"00:26:35.253","start_ms":1595253,"end":"00:26:36.233","end_ms":1596233,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"Yeah."},{"start":"00:26:36.233","start_ms":1596233,"end":"00:26:39.694","end_ms":1599694,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"It's definitely a challenge. It's actually quite interesting because we end up creating,"},{"start":"00:26:39.694","start_ms":1599694,"end":"00:26:43.836","end_ms":1603836,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"to me, it's almost like I split the guidelines into traditional charts with"},{"start":"00:26:43.836","start_ms":1603836,"end":"00:26:47.837","end_ms":1607837,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"the most traditional bar charts, bar charts, whatever you need to have that"},{"start":"00:26:47.837","start_ms":1607837,"end":"00:26:50.418","end_ms":1610418,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"needs to be made in PowerPoint, like we've got custom design,"},{"start":"00:26:50.418","start_ms":1610418,"end":"00:26:53.199","end_ms":1613199,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"especially if we have users that are not designers."},{"start":"00:26:53.199","start_ms":1613199,"end":"00:26:57.881","end_ms":1617881,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"So PowerPoint, Canvas, RowGraph, the easy building building blocks that can"},{"start":"00:26:57.881","start_ms":1617881,"end":"00:27:01.542","end_ms":1621542,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"be reproduced and used for anything we port. But then we usually have a second"},{"start":"00:27:01.542","start_ms":1621542,"end":"00:27:04.303","end_ms":1624303,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"section that's for designers, an information designer."},{"start":"00:27:05.303","start_ms":1625303,"end":"00:27:09.065","end_ms":1629065,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"And sometimes it can overlap a little bit. It can be very simple things that"},{"start":"00:27:09.065","start_ms":1629065,"end":"00:27:12.506","end_ms":1632506,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"you can do. Adding a shadow, adding a texture, photography."},{"start":"00:27:13.726","start_ms":1633726,"end":"00:27:17.407","end_ms":1637407,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"How do you use photography? Do you crop it? Do you not crop it? Is it textured?"},{"start":"00:27:17.768","start_ms":1637768,"end":"00:27:23.029","end_ms":1643029,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"Is it black and white? Does it use a color? So this is something that we add"},{"start":"00:27:23.029","start_ms":1643029,"end":"00:27:27.931","end_ms":1647931,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"that's almost branding and that adds customization into the guidelines."},{"start":"00:27:27.931","start_ms":1647931,"end":"00:27:32.453","end_ms":1652453,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"Cool. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And yeah, it's super interesting."},{"start":"00:27:32.853","start_ms":1652853,"end":"00:27:36.454","end_ms":1656454,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"Ellen, I could imagine your process is totally different because you don't work"},{"start":"00:27:36.454","start_ms":1656454,"end":"00:27:42.416","end_ms":1662416,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"in an agency, but it's more this ongoing big ship instead of the little dinghy"},{"start":"00:27:42.416","start_ms":1662416,"end":"00:27:44.577","end_ms":1664577,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"with the little party on it."},{"start":"00:27:44.577","start_ms":1664577,"end":"00:27:48.498","end_ms":1668498,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"Yeah, yeah. Earlier in my career, I worked for agency."},{"start":"00:27:49.799","start_ms":1669799,"end":"00:27:53.400","end_ms":1673400,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"And we did a lot of brand guides and things of that nature, which certainly"},{"start":"00:27:53.400","start_ms":1673400,"end":"00:27:57.962","end_ms":1677962,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"informed a lot of the work that I do now, but yeah, it is different."},{"start":"00:27:57.962","start_ms":1677962,"end":"00:28:02.804","end_ms":1682804,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"And I do think there's no one process for this stuff. It really is,"},{"start":"00:28:02.804","start_ms":1682804,"end":"00:28:08.586","end_ms":1688586,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"part of the problem here is figuring out what an organization needs and how"},{"start":"00:28:08.586","start_ms":1688586,"end":"00:28:09.926","end_ms":1689926,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"you can best deliver that."},{"start":"00:28:11.847","start_ms":1691847,"end":"00:28:16.329","end_ms":1696329,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"But for us, and one of the advantages of being an internal team is we can deliver"},{"start":"00:28:16.329","start_ms":1696329,"end":"00:28:19.630","end_ms":1699630,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"things incrementally, right? It's not a single deliverable."},{"start":"00:28:21.531","start_ms":1701531,"end":"00:28:25.172","end_ms":1705172,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"We can do something and then add to that over time."},{"start":"00:28:25.772","start_ms":1705772,"end":"00:28:30.694","end_ms":1710694,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"And so that's the approach that we've taken is, and we try and prioritize the"},{"start":"00:28:30.694","start_ms":1710694,"end":"00:28:34.015","end_ms":1714015,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"most important, most valuable, the things that are gonna have the biggest impact"},{"start":"00:28:34.015","start_ms":1714015,"end":"00:28:35.416","end_ms":1715416,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"and then keep adding to that."},{"start":"00:28:35.896","start_ms":1715896,"end":"00:28:40.487","end_ms":1720487,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"And at some point we'll reach a threshold where, the incremental value isn't"},{"start":"00:28:40.487","start_ms":1720487,"end":"00:28:41.898","end_ms":1721898,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"worth the incremental cost."},{"start":"00:28:43.099","start_ms":1723099,"end":"00:28:46.780","end_ms":1726780,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"Be that, actually monetary costs are just costing complexity because as your"},{"start":"00:28:46.780","start_ms":1726780,"end":"00:28:53.314","end_ms":1733314,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"system grows, You can't grow indefinitely or it becomes unusable because it's"},{"start":"00:28:53.314","start_ms":1733314,"end":"00:28:54.427","end_ms":1734427,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"too big and too complicated."},{"start":"00:28:57.155","start_ms":1737155,"end":"00:29:01.897","end_ms":1741897,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"Starting to run up against the bounds of what we feel is an appropriate level of complexity."},{"start":"00:29:02.237","start_ms":1742237,"end":"00:29:07.859","end_ms":1747859,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"But yeah, we do start with the end in mind."},{"start":"00:29:07.859","start_ms":1747859,"end":"00:29:13.361","end_ms":1753361,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"So we'll often produce a lot of example screens and visualizations and UIs and"},{"start":"00:29:13.361","start_ms":1753361,"end":"00:29:21.443","end_ms":1761443,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"then write the guidelines that would produce those, if that makes sense. So we work backwards."},{"start":"00:29:21.443","start_ms":1761443,"end":"00:29:26.225","end_ms":1766225,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"Retrofit, basically. What would have been the rules that would have made these"},{"start":"00:29:26.225","start_ms":1766225,"end":"00:29:28.106","end_ms":1768106,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"choice that obviously seem to work."},{"start":"00:29:28.106","start_ms":1768106,"end":"00:29:33.197","end_ms":1773197,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"Exactly. I feel like that's a good approach."},{"start":"00:29:34.988","start_ms":1774988,"end":"00:29:38.689","end_ms":1778689,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"But at some point you have enough guidelines that you don't have to start with"},{"start":"00:29:38.689","start_ms":1778689,"end":"00:29:42.570","end_ms":1782570,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"the end and you can just take what's existing and expand it a little and then"},{"start":"00:29:42.570","start_ms":1782570,"end":"00:29:46.632","end_ms":1786632,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"see what comes out of it. Yeah."},{"start":"00:29:46.632","start_ms":1786632,"end":"00:29:50.413","end_ms":1790413,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"That's something we also struggled with a lot is you want to get started somewhere"},{"start":"00:29:50.413","start_ms":1790413,"end":"00:29:55.815","end_ms":1795815,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"and build stuff and see stuff. Otherwise, how could you even progress in the"},{"start":"00:29:55.815","start_ms":1795815,"end":"00:30:00.177","end_ms":1800177,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"project? project, right? You need something visual to work with and to debate."},{"start":"00:30:00.997","start_ms":1800997,"end":"00:30:04.519","end_ms":1804519,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"At the same time, you feel like it's such a big system. And if we just keep"},{"start":"00:30:04.519","start_ms":1804519,"end":"00:30:08.660","end_ms":1808660,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"making graphics, you know, it's never be a proper system system, right?"},{"start":"00:30:08.660","start_ms":1808660,"end":"00:30:13.742","end_ms":1813742,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"And so when when do you introduce these rules? Or do you redo all the example"},{"start":"00:30:13.742","start_ms":1813742,"end":"00:30:17.364","end_ms":1817364,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"charts you did before if some design decision changes?"},{"start":"00:30:17.724","start_ms":1817724,"end":"00:30:23.606","end_ms":1823606,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"Like, you know, how do you keep it dynamic also? And one thing I found there"},{"start":"00:30:23.606","start_ms":1823606,"end":"00:30:27.348","end_ms":1827348,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"is this design tokens approach that I'm super excited about."},{"start":"00:30:27.348","start_ms":1827348,"end":"00:30:31.230","end_ms":1831230,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"It's like, so if you're a bit technical inclined or you like coding anyways,"},{"start":"00:30:31.230","start_ms":1831230,"end":"00:30:36.392","end_ms":1836392,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"then I think that's worth looking into because it's a really neat way to sort"},{"start":"00:30:36.392","start_ms":1836392,"end":"00:30:39.613","end_ms":1839613,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"of store all the basic design decisions in the standardized format."},{"start":"00:30:39.613","start_ms":1839613,"end":"00:30:44.977","end_ms":1844977,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"And then ideally if the brand color changes or if the background color changes,"},{"start":"00:30:44.977","start_ms":1844977,"end":"00:30:47.662","end_ms":1847662,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"it all trickles through your implementations."},{"start":"00:30:50.036","start_ms":1850036,"end":"00:30:52.776","end_ms":1852776,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"There's also the risk that you could then keep perfecting that system."},{"start":"00:30:57.138","start_ms":1857138,"end":"00:31:03.680","end_ms":1863680,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"And it becomes a little hobby to clean the token structure and rethink about the hierarchies then."},{"start":"00:31:04.761","start_ms":1864761,"end":"00:31:08.362","end_ms":1868362,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"But I think that helped me a lot to think about, okay, what are the building blocks?"},{"start":"00:31:10.102","start_ms":1870102,"end":"00:31:14.064","end_ms":1874064,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"We need a background color. We also need a sort of a shaded background color."},{"start":"00:31:14.064","start_ms":1874064,"end":"00:31:16.704","end_ms":1876704,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"We need two text colors or maybe three, right?"},{"start":"00:31:19.086","start_ms":1879086,"end":"00:31:20.706","end_ms":1880706,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"Them by how they look, but what"},{"start":"00:31:20.706","start_ms":1880706,"end":"00:31:24.287","end_ms":1884287,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"they do. Oh, it's the high contrast or the low contrast version of it."},{"start":"00:31:24.287","start_ms":1884287,"end":"00:31:29.909","end_ms":1889909,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"And that helped me a lot to think about it in a structured way on the basic"},{"start":"00:31:29.909","start_ms":1889909,"end":"00:31:33.090","end_ms":1893090,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"LEGO building block level and stay flexible in terms of, oh,"},{"start":"00:31:33.090","start_ms":1893090,"end":"00:31:35.951","end_ms":1895951,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"I think we should change the text color on all charts."},{"start":"00:31:35.951","start_ms":1895951,"end":"00:31:39.712","end_ms":1899712,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"That was much easier because we had that system in place. So yeah."},{"start":"00:31:42.413","start_ms":1902413,"end":"00:31:47.455","end_ms":1907455,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"That's the benefits of design systems. Because I think instead of the GAN line"},{"start":"00:31:47.455","start_ms":1907455,"end":"00:31:53.057","end_ms":1913057,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"constrained versus as a design system and tokens and components and patterns"},{"start":"00:31:53.057","start_ms":1913057,"end":"00:31:54.537","end_ms":1914537,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"help you be more flexible."},{"start":"00:31:54.537","start_ms":1914537,"end":"00:31:58.318","end_ms":1918318,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"In my opinion, it's like, it's more, we're giving you the blocks and then you can make it yourself."},{"start":"00:31:58.859","start_ms":1918859,"end":"00:32:02.279","end_ms":1922279,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"And here are just a couple of rules about big mistakes you could make."},{"start":"00:32:03.480","start_ms":1923480,"end":"00:32:06.120","end_ms":1926120,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"And you know, at Pentagram we do a lot of just the rules only."},{"start":"00:32:06.561","start_ms":1926561,"end":"00:32:10.782","end_ms":1930782,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"And I think that can be constraining and not flexible for an organization."},{"start":"00:32:12.321","start_ms":1932321,"end":"00:32:19.604","end_ms":1939604,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"Yeah, on the flip side, I think it allows that creative work to have greater impact."},{"start":"00:32:22.705","start_ms":1942705,"end":"00:32:27.227","end_ms":1947227,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"So if you have to design every chart by hand, you spend a lot of time designing"},{"start":"00:32:27.227","start_ms":1947227,"end":"00:32:29.667","end_ms":1949667,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"the same thing again and again and again and again."},{"start":"00:32:30.248","start_ms":1950248,"end":"00:32:34.329","end_ms":1954329,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"But if you have a system and you're designing the system and playing with the"},{"start":"00:32:34.329","start_ms":1954329,"end":"00:32:40.151","end_ms":1960151,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"tokens, the output scales up really quickly. I mean, it's nearly infinite,"},{"start":"00:32:40.151","start_ms":1960151,"end":"00:32:42.972","end_ms":1962972,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"You have so many different outputs that can be automated."},{"start":"00:32:44.273","start_ms":1964273,"end":"00:32:46.253","end_ms":1966253,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"And so, yeah, it's that flip."},{"start":"00:32:48.414","start_ms":1968414,"end":"00:32:54.076","end_ms":1974076,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"The other side of it, right, is that the creativity that is left to do is more"},{"start":"00:32:54.076","start_ms":1974076,"end":"00:32:55.517","end_ms":1975517,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"impactful and less menial."},{"start":"00:32:57.008","start_ms":1977008,"end":"00:33:00.719","end_ms":1980719,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"Yeah, I love that. Because I think sometimes what you hear is,"},{"start":"00:33:00.719","start_ms":1980719,"end":"00:33:04.580","end_ms":1984580,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"well, we don't need one because we want to do creative things, but it's the opposite."},{"start":"00:33:04.580","start_ms":1984580,"end":"00:33:07.061","end_ms":1987061,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"If you remove the small choices of picking the right font sizes,"},{"start":"00:33:07.061","start_ms":1987061,"end":"00:33:11.723","end_ms":1991723,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"font sizes, picking the right font away, then you can spend more time actually"},{"start":"00:33:11.723","start_ms":1991723,"end":"00:33:15.665","end_ms":1995665,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"looking for creative solution, but you have some blocks that are predefined"},{"start":"00:33:15.665","start_ms":1995665,"end":"00:33:18.146","end_ms":1998146,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"that makes it way faster. And repeatable, obviously."},{"start":"00:33:18.567","start_ms":1998567,"end":"00:33:22.909","end_ms":2002909,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"So I tend to agree, I think it actually opens up more flexibility, if anything."},{"start":"00:33:22.909","start_ms":2002909,"end":"00:33:29.472","end_ms":2009472,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"Yeah. But it's an ongoing thing. And I think another big challenge is,"},{"start":"00:33:29.472","start_ms":2009472,"end":"00:33:32.393","end_ms":2012393,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"I think the initial version is easy to build, right?"},{"start":"00:33:35.195","start_ms":2015195,"end":"00:33:38.757","end_ms":2018757,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"Like how do you make it grow? How does it evolve over time?"},{"start":"00:33:39.297","start_ms":2019297,"end":"00:33:44.720","end_ms":2024720,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"And how do you not have it end up like the German administration that has lots"},{"start":"00:33:44.720","start_ms":2024720,"end":"00:33:51.426","end_ms":2031426,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"of really good rules that in isolation make a lot of sense, but it's a bit too many of them overall."},{"start":"00:33:52.709","start_ms":2032709,"end":"00:33:54.781","end_ms":2034781,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"And so how do you manage?"},{"start":"00:33:57.382","start_ms":2037382,"end":"00:34:02.123","end_ms":2042123,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"Complexity when things grow, right? Or even out of your hands at some point."},{"start":"00:34:02.123","start_ms":2042123,"end":"00:34:04.204","end_ms":2044204,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"Like, what's the life cycle of the whole thing?"},{"start":"00:34:05.005","start_ms":2045005,"end":"00:34:08.946","end_ms":2048946,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"Well, my experience is the opposite. I think the first step is the hardest. Interesting."},{"start":"00:34:09.536","start_ms":2049536,"end":"00:34:14.008","end_ms":2054008,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"The initial thing is so hard. Maybe it's just my nature that I want it to be"},{"start":"00:34:14.008","start_ms":2054008,"end":"00:34:16.249","end_ms":2056249,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"whole or complete in some way."},{"start":"00:34:16.249","start_ms":2056249,"end":"00:34:20.510","end_ms":2060510,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"And just right from the beginning. Exactly. I have that kind of perfectionist"},{"start":"00:34:20.510","start_ms":2060510,"end":"00:34:23.191","end_ms":2063191,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"mentality. I don't want to put something out out there until it's ready and"},{"start":"00:34:23.191","start_ms":2063191,"end":"00:34:24.872","end_ms":2064872,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"I really am confident in it."},{"start":"00:34:25.592","start_ms":2065592,"end":"00:34:28.853","end_ms":2068853,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"But my, and so my experience is that part is the difficult part,"},{"start":"00:34:28.853","start_ms":2068853,"end":"00:34:33.305","end_ms":2073305,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"but once you do have something out there, then delivering incremental value"},{"start":"00:34:33.305","start_ms":2073305,"end":"00:34:36.856","end_ms":2076856,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"is a lot easier because you have a good feedback loop, right?"},{"start":"00:34:36.856","start_ms":2076856,"end":"00:34:42.318","end_ms":2082318,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"You know what people are using, you know what they like, you're hearing feedback."},{"start":"00:34:42.318","start_ms":2082318,"end":"00:34:47.100","end_ms":2087100,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"I mean, designers have feedback, right? They'll tell you what is and isn't working"},{"start":"00:34:47.100","start_ms":2087100,"end":"00:34:50.681","end_ms":2090681,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"for them and you can spend time with them to get into the why."},{"start":"00:34:50.741","start_ms":2090741,"end":"00:34:55.943","end_ms":2095943,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"And then for me, the rest of the process is more natural. It's a lot more service"},{"start":"00:34:55.943","start_ms":2095943,"end":"00:34:58.544","end_ms":2098544,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"oriented where you're like, oh, okay, well, this isn't working,"},{"start":"00:34:58.544","start_ms":2098544,"end":"00:35:03.526","end_ms":2103526,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"so let's focus on fixing it, or this doesn't exist yet, so let's create that thing."},{"start":"00:35:05.047","start_ms":2105047,"end":"00:35:09.288","end_ms":2109288,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"And it's really just how many people need that. And that can be a little more"},{"start":"00:35:09.288","start_ms":2109288,"end":"00:35:13.310","end_ms":2113310,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"harder to determine, but you're just trying to measure impact."},{"start":"00:35:14.911","start_ms":2114911,"end":"00:35:19.252","end_ms":2119252,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"Well, like, Gabby and I, we are brought in as external consultants, your in-house."},{"start":"00:35:21.193","start_ms":2121193,"end":"00:35:28.195","end_ms":2128195,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"What do you think? What can the roles of external consultants be versus in-house folks?"},{"start":"00:35:28.755","start_ms":2128755,"end":"00:35:33.217","end_ms":2133217,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"I've also met people who said, design system? No, we don't work with external"},{"start":"00:35:33.217","start_ms":2133217,"end":"00:35:34.637","end_ms":2134637,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"people on our design system."},{"start":"00:35:34.637","start_ms":2134637,"end":"00:35:38.869","end_ms":2138869,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"That doesn't make sense, right? Because they've begun in three months,"},{"start":"00:35:38.869","start_ms":2138869,"end":"00:35:44.421","end_ms":2144421,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"then it takes care of the actual work that happens afterwards."},{"start":"00:35:46.062","start_ms":2146062,"end":"00:35:52.147","end_ms":2152147,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"Or is there something we can do? I don't know. What's going to take on that?"},{"start":"00:35:52.147","start_ms":2152147,"end":"00:35:57.674","end_ms":2157674,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"Well, at Adobe, we treat Spectrum like a product, like any other product at Adobe."},{"start":"00:35:57.674","start_ms":2157674,"end":"00:36:02.839","end_ms":2162839,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"It's a thing that we build. The differences, our user base is almost entirely"},{"start":"00:36:02.839","start_ms":2162839,"end":"00:36:08.144","end_ms":2168144,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"internal. We do have some external people, vendors and partners and so on,"},{"start":"00:36:08.144","start_ms":2168144,"end":"00:36:09.185","end_ms":2169185,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"and so on that use Vectrum."},{"start":"00:36:10.139","start_ms":2170139,"end":"00:36:16.281","end_ms":2176281,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"The primary audience is internal. And so I don't know how you would have a similar model with an agency."},{"start":"00:36:17.421","start_ms":2177421,"end":"00:36:21.843","end_ms":2181843,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"Not to say that agencies don't play a role in creating some of the initial work"},{"start":"00:36:21.843","start_ms":2181843,"end":"00:36:27.605","end_ms":2187605,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"or coming in and helping you audit it or bring new life to it, bring new ideas."},{"start":"00:36:30.466","start_ms":2190466,"end":"00:36:34.037","end_ms":2194037,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"Sometimes things can get a little stale internally because you're just kind"},{"start":"00:36:34.037","start_ms":2194037,"end":"00:36:38.089","end_ms":2198089,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"of recycling the same set of ideas among the same set of people,"},{"start":"00:36:38.089","start_ms":2198089,"end":"00:36:40.130","end_ms":2200130,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"so fresh perspective can be really useful."},{"start":"00:36:41.730","start_ms":2201730,"end":"00:36:44.571","end_ms":2204571,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"I also think it depends on the nature of your organization, how big it is,"},{"start":"00:36:44.571","start_ms":2204571,"end":"00:36:49.953","end_ms":2209953,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"right? If you are a relatively small startup, you can't spare even a single"},{"start":"00:36:49.953","start_ms":2209953,"end":"00:36:54.635","end_ms":2214635,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"person to run a design system. That would be ludicrous to consider."},{"start":"00:36:55.035","start_ms":2215035,"end":"00:36:59.257","end_ms":2219257,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"And so having someone build something for you that you can just use and maybe"},{"start":"00:36:59.257","start_ms":2219257,"end":"00:37:03.278","end_ms":2223278,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"touch up every year or so might be a better route to go."},{"start":"00:37:04.479","start_ms":2224479,"end":"00:37:06.760","end_ms":2226760,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"There's as many solutions as there are problems."},{"start":"00:37:06.760","start_ms":2226760,"end":"00:37:10.861","end_ms":2230861,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"Yeah, that's true. Gabby, any thoughts on that?"},{"start":"00:37:10.861","start_ms":2230861,"end":"00:37:15.703","end_ms":2235703,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"No, you raise a good point. Because I found it frustrating as a designer who"},{"start":"00:37:15.703","start_ms":2235703,"end":"00:37:20.544","end_ms":2240544,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"makes guidelines as a contractor, to just, we dropped it to a client and we're out of here."},{"start":"00:37:21.425","start_ms":2241425,"end":"00:37:24.886","end_ms":2244886,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"Like, no feedback matters. There's a scope that's defined, there's a budget"},{"start":"00:37:24.886","start_ms":2244886,"end":"00:37:28.427","end_ms":2248427,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"that's defined. So if the scope was that we don't get feedback on it,"},{"start":"00:37:28.427","start_ms":2248427,"end":"00:37:30.908","end_ms":2250908,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"we don't get feedback on it. Even though it works or it doesn't work,"},{"start":"00:37:30.908","start_ms":2250908,"end":"00:37:32.969","end_ms":2252969,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"it doesn't matter almost because we get paid."},{"start":"00:37:34.009","start_ms":2254009,"end":"00:37:35.930","end_ms":2255930,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"Unfortunately, that's how the business works."},{"start":"00:37:38.731","start_ms":2258731,"end":"00:37:42.912","end_ms":2262912,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"I hear you, Alan, and I agree. I think there's a space for it where a small"},{"start":"00:37:42.912","start_ms":2262912,"end":"00:37:46.313","end_ms":2266313,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"organization cannot afford, they don't have the time and the resources to set"},{"start":"00:37:46.313","start_ms":2266313,"end":"00:37:48.954","end_ms":2268954,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"it up, like the initial big phase of doing that work."},{"start":"00:37:49.814","start_ms":2269814,"end":"00:37:54.556","end_ms":2274556,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"But I do think that the development and the incremental changes needs to be"},{"start":"00:37:54.556","start_ms":2274556,"end":"00:37:57.537","end_ms":2277537,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"done internally, otherwise you're going to end up paying an external agency"},{"start":"00:37:57.537","start_ms":2277537,"end":"00:38:01.618","end_ms":2281618,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"for everything and they are not as familiar to your organization needs."},{"start":"00:38:02.042","start_ms":2282042,"end":"00:38:03.304","end_ms":2283304,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"Than the organization itself."},{"start":"00:38:05.928","start_ms":2285928,"end":"00:38:09.089","end_ms":2289089,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"As an extraordinary don't say that we have a value that we bring."},{"start":"00:38:09.089","start_ms":2289089,"end":"00:38:11.650","end_ms":2291650,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"Maybe it's at the initial phase, maybe it's at a big review phase,"},{"start":"00:38:11.650","start_ms":2291650,"end":"00:38:15.451","end_ms":2295451,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"maybe it's just to, you know, nobody has time. So, you know,"},{"start":"00:38:15.451","start_ms":2295451,"end":"00:38:18.212","end_ms":2298212,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"you give them, you let them do kind of the work and then you take over."},{"start":"00:38:18.952","start_ms":2298952,"end":"00:38:23.174","end_ms":2303174,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"But yeah, we cannot if you're going to maintain it, it has to be done internally."},{"start":"00:38:23.174","start_ms":2303174,"end":"00:38:27.735","end_ms":2307735,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"I think, you know, oh, sometimes we can come at consulting to solve issues."},{"start":"00:38:27.735","start_ms":2307735,"end":"00:38:33.077","end_ms":2313077,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"But I really think that, you know, our values are definitely limited here. We can't do it all."},{"start":"00:38:33.298","start_ms":2313298,"end":"00:38:37.419","end_ms":2317419,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"Well, and I think that's part of the value of a design system,"},{"start":"00:38:37.419","start_ms":2317419,"end":"00:38:39.359","end_ms":2319359,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"is it needs to be a living thing."},{"start":"00:38:40.120","start_ms":2320120,"end":"00:38:45.822","end_ms":2325822,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"Because if it's static, it just doesn't continue to solve problems."},{"start":"00:38:46.142","start_ms":2326142,"end":"00:38:50.263","end_ms":2330263,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"You need it to evolve to solve the different problems that you encounter."},{"start":"00:38:50.263","start_ms":2330263,"end":"00:38:55.625","end_ms":2335625,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"So, yeah. Yeah, and I've been thinking a lot about that too."},{"start":"00:38:55.625","start_ms":2335625,"end":"00:39:02.027","end_ms":2342027,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"How do we actually make sure people use the things that we design and keep using?"},{"start":"00:39:02.027","start_ms":2342027,"end":"00:39:05.129","end_ms":2345129,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"And they say like software is either maintained or abandoned."},{"start":"00:39:05.129","start_ms":2345129,"end":"00:39:08.230","end_ms":2348230,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"And I feel like the same might happen with design systems."},{"start":"00:39:08.230","start_ms":2348230,"end":"00:39:12.091","end_ms":2352091,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"If you don't like have somebody internally always pushing for this,"},{"start":"00:39:12.091","start_ms":2352091,"end":"00:39:15.773","end_ms":2355773,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"the system we use, it's cool. This is how you use it. Right."},{"start":"00:39:15.773","start_ms":2355773,"end":"00:39:20.135","end_ms":2360135,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"And so you need also these these advocates and people who do onboarding with"},{"start":"00:39:20.135","start_ms":2360135,"end":"00:39:22.155","end_ms":2362155,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"new folks to keep it going and so on."},{"start":"00:39:22.616","start_ms":2362616,"end":"00:39:27.657","end_ms":2367657,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"And yeah, and somehow you need to think about that whole social process around it as well."},{"start":"00:39:27.657","start_ms":2367657,"end":"00:39:32.539","end_ms":2372539,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"Right. Yeah, the other thing I was thinking about, maybe it's good also not"},{"start":"00:39:32.539","start_ms":2372539,"end":"00:39:38.682","end_ms":2378682,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"to have so much rules, but more, maybe supply more templates or tools or like"},{"start":"00:39:38.682","start_ms":2378682,"end":"00:39:42.343","end_ms":2382343,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"really easy one-click solutions, you know, to do something."},{"start":"00:39:42.343","start_ms":2382343,"end":"00:39:46.905","end_ms":2386905,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"So think about what's the threshold to even using your design system."},{"start":"00:39:46.905","start_ms":2386905,"end":"00:39:52.187","end_ms":2392187,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"Like if it seems to be a big burden or like a big like, oh, I need to read this"},{"start":"00:39:52.187","start_ms":2392187,"end":"00:39:57.691","end_ms":2397691,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"whole book before I can make a single tried, you know, then that immediately might be off putting."},{"start":"00:39:57.691","start_ms":2397691,"end":"00:40:01.095","end_ms":2401095,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"And if you're then not there to enforce it, it's like, yeah,"},{"start":"00:40:01.095","start_ms":2401095,"end":"00:40:04.378","end_ms":2404378,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"we don't care so much about this big rule book."},{"start":"00:40:06.881","start_ms":2406881,"end":"00:40:10.083","end_ms":2410083,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"So yeah, but then again, you need to know really well what people want to make"},{"start":"00:40:10.083","start_ms":2410083,"end":"00:40:12.526","end_ms":2412526,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"with it. And maybe that's often not that clear."},{"start":"00:40:13.547","start_ms":2413547,"end":"00:40:14.948","end_ms":2414948,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"It's interesting to think that..."},{"start":"00:40:15.946","start_ms":2415946,"end":"00:40:19.307","end_ms":2419307,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"External contractors like me, for instance, are designer and use guidelines."},{"start":"00:40:19.727","start_ms":2419727,"end":"00:40:22.928","end_ms":2422928,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"So we are often like the consumer of the product itself."},{"start":"00:40:23.349","start_ms":2423349,"end":"00:40:28.330","end_ms":2428330,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"And so I guess the way I see it, I've changed quite a bit of the way Starguide"},{"start":"00:40:28.330","start_ms":2428330,"end":"00:40:32.832","end_ms":2432832,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"in agency work is often, Starguide only is a big PDF of 60 pages."},{"start":"00:40:32.832","start_ms":2432832,"end":"00:40:38.114","end_ms":2438114,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"You know, PDF, all school, sometimes made for print. So vertical, right?"},{"start":"00:40:38.114","start_ms":2438114,"end":"00:40:39.134","end_ms":2439134,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"Also books, real books."},{"start":"00:40:41.435","start_ms":2441435,"end":"00:40:44.376","end_ms":2444376,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"So it's interesting how you can just come in and be like, I know what I would"},{"start":"00:40:44.376","start_ms":2444376,"end":"00:40:47.497","end_ms":2447497,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"like. So to your point, I think sometimes we don't have access,"},{"start":"00:40:47.497","start_ms":2447497,"end":"00:40:50.358","end_ms":2450358,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"at least I didn't have access to the designer that would be using the book,"},{"start":"00:40:50.358","start_ms":2450358,"end":"00:40:52.219","end_ms":2452219,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"but I was like, here's what I wish I had."},{"start":"00:40:53.300","start_ms":2453300,"end":"00:40:57.501","end_ms":2457501,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"So, you know, text style, paragraph style made in advance in Illustrator."},{"start":"00:40:58.501","start_ms":2458501,"end":"00:41:00.222","end_ms":2460222,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"Paragraph style made in advance in Figma."},{"start":"00:41:00.222","start_ms":2460222,"end":"00:41:01.682","end_ms":2461682,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"Template documents, right?"},{"start":"00:41:01.682","start_ms":2461682,"end":"00:41:04.123","end_ms":2464123,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"Just that kind of thing. I don't want to have the copy paste,"},{"start":"00:41:04.123","start_ms":2464123,"end":"00:41:05.644","end_ms":2465644,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"the goddamn hex code anymore."},{"start":"00:41:07.305","start_ms":2467305,"end":"00:41:10.446","end_ms":2470446,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"Just things like that. So I think it's interesting how, you know,"},{"start":"00:41:10.446","start_ms":2470446,"end":"00:41:14.068","end_ms":2474068,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"But sometimes we forget also, we do things a certain way."},{"start":"00:41:14.488","start_ms":2474488,"end":"00:41:19.351","end_ms":2479351,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"So it's interesting how sometimes having somebody new coming in can help with"},{"start":"00:41:19.351","start_ms":2479351,"end":"00:41:22.873","end_ms":2482873,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"that or can look at it being like, I'm not sure this is working for me."},{"start":"00:41:22.873","start_ms":2482873,"end":"00:41:25.914","end_ms":2485914,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"Because I also find places where they're like, well, we do use the brand guidelines."},{"start":"00:41:25.914","start_ms":2485914,"end":"00:41:27.095","end_ms":2487095,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"We don't really know what we need."},{"start":"00:41:30.177","start_ms":2490177,"end":"00:41:34.699","end_ms":2494699,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"So there's a balance in everything of asking the audience, having your own input"},{"start":"00:41:34.699","start_ms":2494699,"end":"00:41:38.201","end_ms":2498201,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"and being flexible enough to change how we do things every time."},{"start":"00:41:38.201","start_ms":2498201,"end":"00:41:40.322","end_ms":2500322,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"For a new client, for instance, I change it every time."},{"start":"00:41:40.863","start_ms":2500863,"end":"00:41:44.945","end_ms":2504945,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"Everything, including the basic charts or the decision charts,"},{"start":"00:41:44.945","start_ms":2504945,"end":"00:41:49.406","end_ms":2509406,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"and decided what chart to use when, It's different for every client, depending on the topic."},{"start":"00:41:50.824","start_ms":2510824,"end":"00:41:55.426","end_ms":2515426,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"So it's definitely interesting how the audience can, can like force us to adapt"},{"start":"00:41:55.426","start_ms":2515426,"end":"00:42:00.367","end_ms":2520367,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"every time, even for just the initial brief. And then I can imagine internally how that changes."},{"start":"00:42:00.367","start_ms":2520367,"end":"00:42:00.787","end_ms":2520787,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"Yeah."},{"start":"00:42:01.928","start_ms":2521928,"end":"00:42:08.070","end_ms":2528070,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"I mean, I have a very similar experience. The very first foray I had into this"},{"start":"00:42:08.070","start_ms":2528070,"end":"00:42:12.551","end_ms":2532551,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"was like a 60 page PDF, exactly as you described."},{"start":"00:42:13.212","start_ms":2533212,"end":"00:42:17.473","end_ms":2537473,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"And we printed it out and it actually, everyone loved it. Cause they had,"},{"start":"00:42:17.473","start_ms":2537473,"end":"00:42:19.233","end_ms":2539233,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"we didn't have anything like that before."},{"start":"00:42:19.674","start_ms":2539674,"end":"00:42:23.195","end_ms":2543195,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"And so people like engineers and designers had it at their desk and they'd have"},{"start":"00:42:23.195","start_ms":2543195,"end":"00:42:28.457","end_ms":2548457,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"it flipped open to pages, but they would be typing in those X codes and rebuilding"},{"start":"00:42:28.457","start_ms":2548457,"end":"00:42:29.407","end_ms":2549407,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"the buttons themselves."},{"start":"00:42:30.558","start_ms":2550558,"end":"00:42:34.199","end_ms":2554199,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"And so it was only a week or two before an engineer was like,"},{"start":"00:42:34.199","start_ms":2554199,"end":"00:42:38.120","end_ms":2558120,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"can we just get this in Git so that I don't have to rebuild all this stuff?"},{"start":"00:42:38.120","start_ms":2558120,"end":"00:42:43.222","end_ms":2563222,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"And we had designers that are like, where's the, this is how old I am as a designer,"},{"start":"00:42:43.222","start_ms":2563222,"end":"00:42:47.043","end_ms":2567043,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"where's the Illustrator template for this or the Photoshop template for this?"},{"start":"00:42:47.043","start_ms":2567043,"end":"00:42:49.663","end_ms":2569663,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"Or the palettes you can download and all that stuff."},{"start":"00:42:50.864","start_ms":2570864,"end":"00:42:52.985","end_ms":2572985,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"Yeah, I just want an AAC file with my call of help."},{"start":"00:42:52.985","start_ms":2572985,"end":"00:42:58.947","end_ms":2578947,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"Thank you. Exactly. And so we started to create those. And so it slowly evolved"},{"start":"00:42:58.947","start_ms":2578947,"end":"00:43:05.249","end_ms":2585249,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"from a PDF that people printed and kept on their desk to a website with downloadable resources."},{"start":"00:43:05.950","start_ms":2585950,"end":"00:43:09.411","end_ms":2589411,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"And I think it's really important to meet people where they are."},{"start":"00:43:10.621","start_ms":2590621,"end":"00:43:15.233","end_ms":2595233,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"There are times when you need to push people into new and different tools to"},{"start":"00:43:15.233","start_ms":2595233,"end":"00:43:19.395","end_ms":2599395,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"better do their job. But for the most part, they have the tools to do their"},{"start":"00:43:19.395","start_ms":2599395,"end":"00:43:21.575","end_ms":2601575,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"job and they just need you to provide the resources."},{"start":"00:43:21.995","start_ms":2601995,"end":"00:43:25.136","end_ms":2605136,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"And so if your users are in PowerPoint."},{"start":"00:43:25.136","start_ms":2605136,"end":"00:43:26.637","end_ms":2606637,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"Make it easier."},{"start":"00:43:26.637","start_ms":2606637,"end":"00:43:29.758","end_ms":2609758,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"Exactly, if they're in PowerPoint and that's what they're using to build their"},{"start":"00:43:29.758","start_ms":2609758,"end":"00:43:33.740","end_ms":2613740,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"charts or Excel, you've got to provide those Excel and PowerPoint templates."},{"start":"00:43:34.540","start_ms":2614540,"end":"00:43:38.441","end_ms":2618441,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"It pains me sometimes to say that, but it's true. And likewise,"},{"start":"00:43:38.441","start_ms":2618441,"end":"00:43:43.503","end_ms":2623503,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"if they're in R or Tableau, use the tools that they use, provide the resources"},{"start":"00:43:43.503","start_ms":2623503,"end":"00:43:49.426","end_ms":2629426,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"in that tool's format that form tools language and you'll be more successful by far."},{"start":"00:43:51.206","start_ms":2631206,"end":"00:43:56.347","end_ms":2636347,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"Yeah, I think that's interesting. And I think that also, if you take that super serious means,"},{"start":"00:43:56.347","start_ms":2636347,"end":"00:43:59.869","end_ms":2639869,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"really, you can't be too picky about all this, the design details,"},{"start":"00:43:59.869","start_ms":2639869,"end":"00:44:05.751","end_ms":2645751,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"really, like, what the spacing is exactly, or, you know, what type of tricky"},{"start":"00:44:05.751","start_ms":2645751,"end":"00:44:10.473","end_ms":2650473,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"access configuration you have come up with, but really be more really clear"},{"start":"00:44:10.473","start_ms":2650473,"end":"00:44:12.533","end_ms":2652533,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"about these are our underlying principles."},{"start":"00:44:12.934","start_ms":2652934,"end":"00:44:16.375","end_ms":2656375,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"And this is what, like, qualities all all of our charts should have in terms"},{"start":"00:44:16.375","start_ms":2656375,"end":"00:44:23.958","end_ms":2663958,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"of accessibility or voice or whatever, but then being really flexible about how that happens."},{"start":"00:44:23.958","start_ms":2663958,"end":"00:44:26.779","end_ms":2666779,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"And maybe there as a designer, we need to be a bit more like,"},{"start":"00:44:26.779","start_ms":2666779,"end":"00:44:33.742","end_ms":2673742,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"the details don't matter that much, it's fine as long as the general direction is good."},{"start":"00:44:34.682","start_ms":2674682,"end":"00:44:39.684","end_ms":2679684,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"Or am I being too generous here? No, there's a lot of truth to that."},{"start":"00:44:39.684","start_ms":2679684,"end":"00:44:44.146","end_ms":2684146,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"But I feel like one of my roles as a designer is to never give up on the ideal, right?"},{"start":"00:44:45.286","start_ms":2685286,"end":"00:44:51.308","end_ms":2691308,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"So I always- It's facing matters. It does. That rounded corner makes a difference,"},{"start":"00:44:51.308","start_ms":2691308,"end":"00:44:58.171","end_ms":2698171,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"right? It's only a one pixel axi, but just round that corner and it just makes it sing, right?"},{"start":"00:44:59.411","start_ms":2699411,"end":"00:45:03.152","end_ms":2703152,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"And you can get that if they're working in one tool, but in another tool,"},{"start":"00:45:03.152","start_ms":2703152,"end":"00:45:04.613","end_ms":2704613,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"like it just doesn't support that."},{"start":"00:45:04.613","start_ms":2704613,"end":"00:45:10.935","end_ms":2710935,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"So there's a reality to what you're saying, but I do think we need to advocate"},{"start":"00:45:10.935","start_ms":2710935,"end":"00:45:15.256","end_ms":2715256,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"for the ideal and then compromise as needed."},{"start":"00:45:15.256","start_ms":2715256,"end":"00:45:21.299","end_ms":2721299,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"Yeah, yeah. You can have one gold standard implementation also,"},{"start":"00:45:21.299","start_ms":2721299,"end":"00:45:23.919","end_ms":2723919,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"where you say this is how it really should look like."},{"start":"00:45:24.340","start_ms":2724340,"end":"00:45:27.181","end_ms":2727181,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"That's how it's meant, but then maybe flexible on."},{"start":"00:45:28.561","start_ms":2728561,"end":"00:45:32.982","end_ms":2732982,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"In a different context, it's fine if it doesn't hit all the design details."},{"start":"00:45:32.982","start_ms":2732982,"end":"00:45:39.825","end_ms":2739825,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"I also found it, it's often that, to me, the pixel close, those precise details"},{"start":"00:45:39.825","start_ms":2739825,"end":"00:45:44.777","end_ms":2744777,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"helpful sometimes for specifically non-designers or people who are like not,"},{"start":"00:45:46.049","start_ms":2746049,"end":"00:45:50.891","end_ms":2750891,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"I think this, because we can't teach them design, we have to give them really"},{"start":"00:45:50.891","start_ms":2750891,"end":"00:45:57.873","end_ms":2757873,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"precise rules so that they don't have the understanding of what the right spacing in, text hierarchy."},{"start":"00:45:58.213","start_ms":2758213,"end":"00:46:01.635","end_ms":2761635,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"And so we see it regularly when researchers make PowerPoint,"},{"start":"00:46:01.635","start_ms":2761635,"end":"00:46:03.695","end_ms":2763695,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"right? No offense to researchers out here."},{"start":"00:46:04.736","start_ms":2764736,"end":"00:46:08.957","end_ms":2768957,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"We respect you, we used to be there, we know how it feels. But I think sometimes"},{"start":"00:46:08.957","start_ms":2768957,"end":"00:46:12.018","end_ms":2772018,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"they just don't have the sense, they don't have time to even learn,"},{"start":"00:46:12.018","start_ms":2772018,"end":"00:46:13.559","end_ms":2773559,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"and we don't wanna make them designers."},{"start":"00:46:13.879","start_ms":2773879,"end":"00:46:17.340","end_ms":2777340,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"So it's more, those rules can also be set up sometimes just to actually help"},{"start":"00:46:17.340","start_ms":2777340,"end":"00:46:20.661","end_ms":2780661,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"them without having to like give them free workshop on how to do database."},{"start":"00:46:20.661","start_ms":2780661,"end":"00:46:24.956","end_ms":2784956,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"It's just like, here is it easy. You just have to follow this exact guidelines,"},{"start":"00:46:24.956","start_ms":2784956,"end":"00:46:28.984","end_ms":2788984,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"this exact pixel, this exact roundling corner in your software,"},{"start":"00:46:28.984","start_ms":2788984,"end":"00:46:33.386","end_ms":2793386,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"we give it to you so that you don't have to think about it really and to make your job faster."},{"start":"00:46:34.946","start_ms":2794946,"end":"00:46:37.387","end_ms":2797387,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"Otherwise, interpretation is nice, especially as designers, we know how to do"},{"start":"00:46:37.387","start_ms":2797387,"end":"00:46:42.169","end_ms":2802169,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"things. So we feel more comfortable taking some freedom into interpretation of the guidelines."},{"start":"00:46:42.549","start_ms":2802549,"end":"00:46:47.391","end_ms":2807391,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"But I think for other users, it might be really important to just help with"},{"start":"00:46:47.391","start_ms":2807391,"end":"00:46:50.412","end_ms":2810412,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"that and just give really precise guidelines that just makes their work easier."},{"start":"00:46:50.412","start_ms":2810412,"end":"00:46:54.934","end_ms":2814934,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"But then I'm thinking if the exact one-to-one look really matters,"},{"start":"00:46:54.934","start_ms":2814934,"end":"00:46:58.595","end_ms":2818595,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"then maybe it's actually better to supply a software that creates the thing"},{"start":"00:46:58.595","start_ms":2818595,"end":"00:47:05.818","end_ms":2825818,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"as it should look, or a template, because otherwise you end up with really long, super detailed specs."},{"start":"00:47:05.818","start_ms":2825818,"end":"00:47:08.299","end_ms":2828299,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"I think so, but it's hard to sell to clients sometimes."},{"start":"00:47:10.640","start_ms":2830640,"end":"00:47:15.262","end_ms":2835262,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"At the industry level, I think that's what I run into is often we get scoped"},{"start":"00:47:15.262","start_ms":2835262,"end":"00:47:17.303","end_ms":2837303,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"for just the guidelines and no templates."},{"start":"00:47:17.303","start_ms":2837303,"end":"00:47:19.924","end_ms":2839924,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"And they may come back six months later and ask for the templates."},{"start":"00:47:19.924","start_ms":2839924,"end":"00:47:23.505","end_ms":2843505,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"That happens regularly. But you wish you could sell it and be like,"},{"start":"00:47:23.505","start_ms":2843505,"end":"00:47:26.326","end_ms":2846326,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"you're going to need this. Believe me, you're going to need this."},{"start":"00:47:26.827","start_ms":2846827,"end":"00:47:30.688","end_ms":2850688,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"And the guidelines. Yeah, this is where this initial scoping comes in,"},{"start":"00:47:30.688","start_ms":2850688,"end":"00:47:33.970","end_ms":2853970,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"in terms of, okay, what do you hope to achieve? Who is this for?"},{"start":"00:47:34.512","start_ms":2854512,"end":"00:47:37.556","end_ms":2857556,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"What are the actual things we should supply because of that, right?"},{"start":"00:47:38.850","start_ms":2858850,"end":"00:47:41.951","end_ms":2861951,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"Yeah, interesting. And at the same time, the whole tooling landscape is shifting"},{"start":"00:47:41.951","start_ms":2861951,"end":"00:47:44.392","end_ms":2864392,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"too, right? It's like, what do you do your charts in?"},{"start":"00:47:45.373","start_ms":2865373,"end":"00:47:52.095","end_ms":2872095,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"There's a new answer to that every two years. And ideally, our stuff should"},{"start":"00:47:52.095","start_ms":2872095,"end":"00:47:55.817","end_ms":2875817,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"survive a few of these iterations as well in terms of tooling."},{"start":"00:47:55.817","start_ms":2875817,"end":"00:47:59.138","end_ms":2879138,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"And so there are a lot of challenges there."},{"start":"00:48:01.180","start_ms":2881180,"end":"00:48:04.040","end_ms":2884040,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"I think we need to sort of wrap things up semi-soon."},{"start":"00:48:05.581","start_ms":2885581,"end":"00:48:09.803","end_ms":2889803,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"I have two more questions. So one is about are there any caveats,"},{"start":"00:48:09.803","start_ms":2889803,"end":"00:48:14.785","end_ms":2894785,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"traps, failures, things you wish you would have known before somebody sent you"},{"start":"00:48:14.785","start_ms":2894785,"end":"00:48:22.969","end_ms":2902969,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"on that impossible journey that you could share with our audience who might be new to the field,"},{"start":"00:48:22.969","start_ms":2902969,"end":"00:48:27.791","end_ms":2907791,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"like something valuable to avoid or just stuff that happened."},{"start":"00:48:29.171","start_ms":2909171,"end":"00:48:32.772","end_ms":2912772,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"Oh boy, I would say be humble and listen."},{"start":"00:48:34.213","start_ms":2914213,"end":"00:48:38.815","end_ms":2918815,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"I remember early on I had just discovered histograms and I'm like,"},{"start":"00:48:38.815","start_ms":2918815,"end":"00:48:43.697","end_ms":2923697,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"oh histograms, okay. And I thought I understood what a histogram was."},{"start":"00:48:44.277","start_ms":2924277,"end":"00:48:51.560","end_ms":2931560,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"And I was writing guidelines and explaining to people and six months later I"},{"start":"00:48:51.560","start_ms":2931560,"end":"00:48:54.981","end_ms":2934981,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"realized I was wrong about some fundamental things."},{"start":"00:48:56.882","start_ms":2936882,"end":"00:49:02.744","end_ms":2942744,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"And it was difficult to eat that crow and fix the wrongs that I had done."},{"start":"00:49:03.484","start_ms":2943484,"end":"00:49:07.746","end_ms":2947746,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"Because people trusted me, right? I taught them things and I thought I was right"},{"start":"00:49:07.746","start_ms":2947746,"end":"00:49:12.468","end_ms":2952468,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"and they thought I was right. And I wish I had just been taking a little more"},{"start":"00:49:12.468","start_ms":2952468,"end":"00:49:16.229","end_ms":2956229,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"time to educate myself before I had put forth these things."},{"start":"00:49:17.792","start_ms":2957792,"end":"00:49:23.006","end_ms":2963006,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"So early feedback and really get people to comment on everything."},{"start":"00:49:23.006","start_ms":2963006,"end":"00:49:23.606","end_ms":2963606,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"Yeah, yeah."},{"start":"00:49:26.106","start_ms":2966106,"end":"00:49:30.388","end_ms":2970388,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"Yeah, I like that you said people trust me, because to my point,"},{"start":"00:49:30.388","start_ms":2970388,"end":"00:49:36.610","end_ms":2976610,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"I think, especially at Contractor, we get a lot of trust, and they hire us as experts, right?"},{"start":"00:49:36.610","start_ms":2976610,"end":"00:49:41.372","end_ms":2981372,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"So we tend to be trusted, and you know, whatever we say, it's going to be the"},{"start":"00:49:41.372","start_ms":2981372,"end":"00:49:43.192","end_ms":2983192,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"Bible. And I found it problematic."},{"start":"00:49:43.733","start_ms":2983733,"end":"00:49:49.695","end_ms":2989695,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"Not problematic, but I found that it's a lot of responsibility that we forget, I think."},{"start":"00:49:50.535","start_ms":2990535,"end":"00:49:54.877","end_ms":2994877,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"And I wrote about this recently, but I think especially when we make guidelines"},{"start":"00:49:54.877","start_ms":2994877,"end":"00:49:58.958","end_ms":2998958,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"that are going to be used potentially by hundreds of people or templates,"},{"start":"00:49:58.958","start_ms":2998958,"end":"00:50:01.459","end_ms":3001459,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"it's, we have such a responsibility to do them properly."},{"start":"00:50:01.819","start_ms":3001819,"end":"00:50:05.221","end_ms":3005221,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"So not just for the users so that they're usable, easy to understand,"},{"start":"00:50:05.221","start_ms":3005221,"end":"00:50:09.943","end_ms":3009943,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"et cetera, et cetera. But I think we need to meet the big caveat when I got"},{"start":"00:50:09.943","start_ms":3009943,"end":"00:50:13.504","end_ms":3013504,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"lines is we don't approach like ethics in database and guidelines."},{"start":"00:50:13.504","start_ms":3013504,"end":"00:50:15.445","end_ms":3015445,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"We're like, here's the job. This is how you make it."},{"start":"00:50:15.865","start_ms":3015865,"end":"00:50:20.006","end_ms":3020006,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"Especially when you like me and you work with a lot of data that like social data. So bad people."},{"start":"00:50:20.707","start_ms":3020707,"end":"00:50:24.728","end_ms":3024728,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"Of course, I think it's getting more common, accessibility, some kind of rules."},{"start":"00:50:25.288","start_ms":3025288,"end":"00:50:28.289","end_ms":3028289,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"It's becoming more common, but I still see a lot of it as just like,"},{"start":"00:50:28.289","start_ms":3028289,"end":"00:50:30.210","end_ms":3030210,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"here's the colors, here's the thing, do whatever you want."},{"start":"00:50:30.210","start_ms":3030210,"end":"00:50:33.881","end_ms":3033881,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"And I just, I want to start this conversation with,"},{"start":"00:50:33.881","start_ms":3033881,"end":"00:50:39.813","end_ms":3039813,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"you know, maybe we shouldn't, the colors matter, but maybe we should also question"},{"start":"00:50:39.813","start_ms":3039813,"end":"00:50:46.135","end_ms":3046135,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"like, should guidelines also offer more guidance on when do you actually need to do database?"},{"start":"00:50:46.135","start_ms":3046135,"end":"00:50:50.824","end_ms":3050824,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"Which database should you be doing? Like should you actually emphasize differences"},{"start":"00:50:50.824","start_ms":3050824,"end":"00:50:53.498","end_ms":3053498,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"between social groups, ethnicity for instance?"},{"start":"00:50:53.498","start_ms":3053498,"end":"00:50:58.960","end_ms":3058960,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"Like we have research nowadays that shows that maybe it's a problem to raise awareness this way."},{"start":"00:50:58.960","start_ms":3058960,"end":"00:51:02.681","end_ms":3062681,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"And I'm wondering, and I know it's a little further than what designers are,"},{"start":"00:51:02.681","start_ms":3062681,"end":"00:51:07.023","end_ms":3067023,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"I think we get caught into the detail of design, but at least designers like"},{"start":"00:51:07.023","start_ms":3067023,"end":"00:51:09.443","end_ms":3069443,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"me who work on guidelines for those big organizations that,"},{"start":"00:51:09.443","start_ms":3069443,"end":"00:51:13.265","end_ms":3073265,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"you know, approaches like sensitive topics, I'm just wondering if there's a"},{"start":"00:51:13.265","start_ms":3073265,"end":"00:51:19.893","end_ms":3079893,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"place for us to be more responsible and think twice about the work we do and"},{"start":"00:51:19.893","start_ms":3079893,"end":"00:51:21.757","end_ms":3081757,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"give guidance on maybe even terminology."},{"start":"00:51:22.509","start_ms":3082509,"end":"00:51:27.080","end_ms":3087080,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"Like, how do we use, you know, ethnicities? Yeah, texts. Like,"},{"start":"00:51:27.080","start_ms":3087080,"end":"00:51:32.622","end_ms":3092622,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"you know, how are we, can we promote transparency in how data is sourced within"},{"start":"00:51:32.622","start_ms":3092622,"end":"00:51:35.323","end_ms":3095323,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"the guidelines? Like, I think there's so much more we can do with it that's"},{"start":"00:51:35.323","start_ms":3095323,"end":"00:51:36.803","end_ms":3096803,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"not just design related."},{"start":"00:51:38.084","start_ms":3098084,"end":"00:51:42.625","end_ms":3102625,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"So I guess that's my big statement. I just want designers to be a little more,"},{"start":"00:51:42.625","start_ms":3102625,"end":"00:51:45.026","end_ms":3105026,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"but to also space is happening."},{"start":"00:51:45.026","start_ms":3105026,"end":"00:51:48.047","end_ms":3108047,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"Think about more than decoration of numbers, right?"},{"start":"00:51:48.047","start_ms":3108047,"end":"00:51:52.388","end_ms":3112388,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"Yeah. And also have that humility, you know. I think he makes a great point."},{"start":"00:51:52.388","start_ms":3112388,"end":"00:51:56.350","end_ms":3116350,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"We are a little bit approaching a top-down approach, like designers say something,"},{"start":"00:51:56.350","start_ms":3116350,"end":"00:51:58.130","end_ms":3118130,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"and we are problem solvers."},{"start":"00:51:58.771","start_ms":3118771,"end":"00:52:02.372","end_ms":3122372,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"Yeah, and also the hope is with this design system, it's the Bible."},{"start":"00:52:02.372","start_ms":3122372,"end":"00:52:08.054","end_ms":3128054,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"It's once and for all, this is how you do it. And we all know this is not how it works."},{"start":"00:52:09.354","start_ms":3129354,"end":"00:52:13.716","end_ms":3133716,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"You can be brilliant at your job and do it for 30 years, and still every project"},{"start":"00:52:13.716","start_ms":3133716,"end":"00:52:16.477","end_ms":3136477,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"is new, and there's always uncertainties and doubt."},{"start":"00:52:16.777","start_ms":3136777,"end":"00:52:20.258","end_ms":3140258,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"And you could always do it this way or that way, and in the end you just make"},{"start":"00:52:20.258","start_ms":3140258,"end":"00:52:25.120","end_ms":3145120,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"an informed judgment call. but there's no absolute truth in design, right? And so, yeah."},{"start":"00:52:27.201","start_ms":3147201,"end":"00:52:31.302","end_ms":3151302,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"I love that point because I think there's so many decisions that lead up to"},{"start":"00:52:31.302","start_ms":3151302,"end":"00:52:32.762","end_ms":3152762,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"the final product of a visualization."},{"start":"00:52:33.863","start_ms":3153863,"end":"00:52:40.085","end_ms":3160085,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"And a visualization doesn't often acknowledge those things, right?"},{"start":"00:52:40.706","start_ms":3160706,"end":"00:52:45.797","end_ms":3165797,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"I think that's one of the most problematic pieces of data visualization is because"},{"start":"00:52:45.797","start_ms":3165797,"end":"00:52:51.049","end_ms":3171049,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"it's so easy to trust. That's why we see so many problems emerge around dishonest"},{"start":"00:52:51.049","start_ms":3171049,"end":"00:52:52.510","end_ms":3172510,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"charts and things of that nature."},{"start":"00:52:53.130","start_ms":3173130,"end":"00:52:59.253","end_ms":3179253,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"Even the most well-intentioned individual is obscuring the actual truth to some"},{"start":"00:52:59.253","start_ms":3179253,"end":"00:53:04.274","end_ms":3184274,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"extent in an effort to tell a story or to simplify a problem or illustrate a point."},{"start":"00:53:05.735","start_ms":3185735,"end":"00:53:08.896","end_ms":3188896,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"So I don't know how to solve that, but, and it goes back to,"},{"start":"00:53:08.896","start_ms":3188896,"end":"00:53:12.918","end_ms":3192918,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"I guess, one of my earlier points about the desire to educate people,"},{"start":"00:53:12.918","start_ms":3192918,"end":"00:53:14.378","end_ms":3194378,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"not just about styles, but about"},{"start":"00:53:14.378","start_ms":3194378,"end":"00:53:17.599","end_ms":3197599,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"data literacy and all the overlaps and intricacies of data visualization."},{"start":"00:53:20.182","start_ms":3200182,"end":"00:53:25.305","end_ms":3205305,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"I just, I think that's an important thing. And to your point,"},{"start":"00:53:25.305","start_ms":3205305,"end":"00:53:26.766","end_ms":3206766,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"Gabriel, we can't lose sight of that."},{"start":"00:53:28.380","start_ms":3208380,"end":"00:53:32.741","end_ms":3212741,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"Yeah, I don't know how to do that in guidelines. It's definitely an education maybe,"},{"start":"00:53:32.741","start_ms":3212741,"end":"00:53:36.413","end_ms":3216413,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"but it is about, I think we tend to focus designer,"},{"start":"00:53:36.413","start_ms":3216413,"end":"00:53:40.604","end_ms":3220604,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"we're taught for a long time that we are like solution maker,"},{"start":"00:53:40.604","start_ms":3220604,"end":"00:53:44.606","end_ms":3224606,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"you know, but we should focus on approaches, on like something that's flexible,"},{"start":"00:53:44.606","start_ms":3224606,"end":"00:53:49.807","end_ms":3229807,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"agile, and that gives space to others to give the opinion and take decision,"},{"start":"00:53:49.807","start_ms":3229807,"end":"00:53:52.688","end_ms":3232688,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"you know, give them the best tool, including an educative tool,"},{"start":"00:53:52.688","start_ms":3232688,"end":"00:53:56.350","end_ms":3236350,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"to make those decisions rather than just get really strict guidance that might"},{"start":"00:53:56.350","start_ms":3236350,"end":"00:54:02.232","end_ms":3242232,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"be also found false or harmful in 20 years, because I think we see a lot of that nowadays."},{"start":"00:54:03.633","start_ms":3243633,"end":"00:54:07.174","end_ms":3247174,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"Yeah, that's a great point. Maybe it's related to my last provocation that I"},{"start":"00:54:07.174","start_ms":3247174,"end":"00:54:11.295","end_ms":3251295,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"want to throw in here, because maybe I'm just getting old, but I find that a"},{"start":"00:54:11.295","start_ms":3251295,"end":"00:54:14.816","end_ms":3254816,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"lot of design is really boring these days. Like web design is super boring."},{"start":"00:54:14.816","start_ms":3254816,"end":"00:54:17.417","end_ms":3257417,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"Everything looks the same. There's like big round buttons."},{"start":"00:54:18.978","start_ms":3258978,"end":"00:54:23.199","end_ms":3263199,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"You know, I feel like there's like five templates and they are just applied all over the whole web."},{"start":"00:54:24.720","start_ms":3264720,"end":"00:54:28.602","end_ms":3268602,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"And I think in a way it's cool because everything's super easy to use now."},{"start":"00:54:28.602","start_ms":3268602,"end":"00:54:33.003","end_ms":3273003,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"No surprises. It's like, cool, I know my way around."},{"start":"00:54:34.004","start_ms":3274004,"end":"00:54:38.506","end_ms":3278506,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"On the other hand, I feel like if we streamline everything and everything gets"},{"start":"00:54:38.506","start_ms":3278506,"end":"00:54:45.368","end_ms":3285368,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"formalized and optimized and templatized and standardized, where's the fun in that?"},{"start":"00:54:48.910","start_ms":3288910,"end":"00:54:54.619","end_ms":3294619,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"No, don't we abstract away all the interesting, a bit uncomfortable,"},{"start":"00:54:54.619","start_ms":3294619,"end":"00:54:59.694","end_ms":3299694,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"weird, edgy things? If everything becomes formalized and standardized?"},{"start":"00:55:00.134","start_ms":3300134,"end":"00:55:03.116","end_ms":3303116,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"And are we contributing to that with our design system work?"},{"start":"00:55:03.116","start_ms":3303116,"end":"00:55:05.236","end_ms":3305236,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"That's something I've been thinking about."},{"start":"00:55:05.236","start_ms":3305236,"end":"00:55:10.128","end_ms":3310128,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"I have a thought on that. So it's an interesting question because you said,"},{"start":"00:55:10.128","start_ms":3310128,"end":"00:55:15.382","end_ms":3315382,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"I know my way around, which I think most people do, and the idea of we've standardized"},{"start":"00:55:15.382","start_ms":3315382,"end":"00:55:17.986","end_ms":3317986,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"web design, for instance, is pretty standardized."},{"start":"00:55:17.986","start_ms":3317986,"end":"00:55:20.969","end_ms":3320969,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"I think there's a question of like, it's standard that's for who?"},{"start":"00:55:22.750","start_ms":3322750,"end":"00:55:27.991","end_ms":3327991,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"Because we're in this conversation, right? We're standards, you're centric and then Americans."},{"start":"00:55:28.391","start_ms":3328391,"end":"00:55:33.193","end_ms":3333193,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"And I think we need to ask this question of like, when we do that,"},{"start":"00:55:33.193","start_ms":3333193,"end":"00:55:38.195","end_ms":3338195,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"when we automatize things, when we do this thing of standardizing,"},{"start":"00:55:38.195","start_ms":3338195,"end":"00:55:40.596","end_ms":3340596,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"do we take into account enough people?"},{"start":"00:55:42.517","start_ms":3342517,"end":"00:55:45.698","end_ms":3345698,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"I think we all have this thing of like, this is how design is done."},{"start":"00:55:46.798","start_ms":3346798,"end":"00:55:49.939","end_ms":3349939,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"Modernism, it needs to be clean and minimal and sensitive."},{"start":"00:55:50.439","start_ms":3350439,"end":"00:55:51.200","end_ms":3351200,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"Like, why?"},{"start":"00:55:51.200","start_ms":3351200,"end":"00:55:55.581","end_ms":3355581,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"You know, when you look at design from East Asia, like, it might look very different."},{"start":"00:55:55.581","start_ms":3355581,"end":"00:55:58.462","end_ms":3358462,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"And to the eyes of American designers like me, I mean, like,"},{"start":"00:55:58.462","start_ms":3358462,"end":"00:56:01.563","end_ms":3361563,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"it's messy. It doesn't respect text hierarchy. It's not albedica."},{"start":"00:56:02.404","start_ms":3362404,"end":"00:56:05.245","end_ms":3365245,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"Well, no, albedica doesn't write like in the story, guys."},{"start":"00:56:06.405","start_ms":3366405,"end":"00:56:10.847","end_ms":3370847,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"So it's interesting how I wonder, I'm not against it. I actually found it like, to me, automating."},{"start":"00:56:11.427","start_ms":3371427,"end":"00:56:16.149","end_ms":3376149,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"But you question if it's actually true or if it's just a slice of reality or..."},{"start":"00:56:16.149","start_ms":3376149,"end":"00:56:21.351","end_ms":3381351,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"Is it for the right thing? When is it used? How is it used? For who is it used?"},{"start":"00:56:21.351","start_ms":3381351,"end":"00:56:25.272","end_ms":3385272,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"Is I think those questions that, you know, are like, I find challenging."},{"start":"00:56:25.272","start_ms":3385272,"end":"00:56:29.534","end_ms":3389534,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"Like, I want to automate my workflow. I want to, I think it's so practical to"},{"start":"00:56:29.534","start_ms":3389534,"end":"00:56:30.994","end_ms":3390994,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"have those technology, Figma components."},{"start":"00:56:32.135","start_ms":3392135,"end":"00:56:37.036","end_ms":3397036,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"Like, it's so great. I just wonder if we automate, we tend to repeat a certain"},{"start":"00:56:37.036","start_ms":3397036,"end":"00:56:41.078","end_ms":3401078,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"point of view in design that has been put by a certain type of population."},{"start":"00:56:41.498","start_ms":3401498,"end":"00:56:45.339","end_ms":3405339,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"And maybe it doesn't apply to everyone, it's not fit for every audience."},{"start":"00:56:45.339","start_ms":3405339,"end":"00:56:50.961","end_ms":3410961,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"Yeah, I agree with that. I think that I like that."},{"start":"00:56:52.342","start_ms":3412342,"end":"00:56:57.864","end_ms":3417864,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"I think my take on it is that sometimes it's an enabler. We've talked about"},{"start":"00:56:57.864","start_ms":3417864,"end":"00:56:58.904","end_ms":3418904,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"that a little bit already."},{"start":"00:57:00.145","start_ms":3420145,"end":"00:57:05.206","end_ms":3425206,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"By systemizing design, it enables you to design a lot of things at once."},{"start":"00:57:05.987","start_ms":3425987,"end":"00:57:09.648","end_ms":3429648,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"And that's really cool. And I think that's really powerful."},{"start":"00:57:11.389","start_ms":3431389,"end":"00:57:15.990","end_ms":3435990,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"And typically, the thing that kind of design you're enabling is,"},{"start":"00:57:15.990","start_ms":3435990,"end":"00:57:19.891","end_ms":3439891,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"to your point, more it's pretty expected and not terribly exciting."},{"start":"00:57:21.352","start_ms":3441352,"end":"00:57:26.734","end_ms":3446734,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"But it works and it's usable. But that's not to say you couldn't build a system"},{"start":"00:57:26.734","start_ms":3446734,"end":"00:57:30.575","end_ms":3450575,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"that is just wild and crazy and super creative."},{"start":"00:57:32.816","start_ms":3452816,"end":"00:57:38.858","end_ms":3458858,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"So I think I'm really excited for the next 10 years because I think not only"},{"start":"00:57:38.858","start_ms":3458858,"end":"00:57:43.820","end_ms":3463820,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"are the tools that we to do this work going to continue to evolve and change,"},{"start":"00:57:43.820","start_ms":3463820,"end":"00:57:48.762","end_ms":3468762,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"and there's going to be new ones and things, I think the work that comes out"},{"start":"00:57:48.762","start_ms":3468762,"end":"00:57:51.223","end_ms":3471223,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"of those tools is going to be better too."},{"start":"00:57:51.223","start_ms":3471223,"end":"00:57:57.005","end_ms":3477005,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"I think one of the challenges to being creative isn't necessarily the systemization,"},{"start":"00:57:57.005","start_ms":3477005,"end":"00:57:58.565","end_ms":3478565,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"it's the feedback loop, right?"},{"start":"00:57:59.105","start_ms":3479105,"end":"00:58:03.847","end_ms":3483847,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"Right now, like I author my system over here, and then I see the results over"},{"start":"00:58:03.847","start_ms":3483847,"end":"00:58:09.109","end_ms":3489109,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"here, and it's very difficult to kind of connect all those dots."},{"start":"00:58:09.109","start_ms":3489109,"end":"00:58:14.102","end_ms":3494102,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"And I think software is going to get better and better providing creative feedback"},{"start":"00:58:14.102","start_ms":3494102,"end":"00:58:17.411","end_ms":3497411,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"loops for all types of design, not just."},{"start":"00:58:18.065","start_ms":3498065,"end":"00:58:21.686","end_ms":3501686,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"The kind of traditional print and web design that we've done up until now,"},{"start":"00:58:21.686","start_ms":3501686,"end":"00:58:23.477","end_ms":3503477,"speaker":"4","voice":"Alan Wilson","text":"but the more system level design."},{"start":"00:58:23.477","start_ms":3503477,"end":"00:58:28.649","end_ms":3508649,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"If you think about AI tools, they can generate hundreds of variations of something,"},{"start":"00:58:28.649","start_ms":3508649,"end":"00:58:30.970","end_ms":3510970,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"and then you pick and curate and combine."},{"start":"00:58:31.830","start_ms":3511830,"end":"00:58:34.791","end_ms":3514791,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"That's a whole new thing. Exactly."},{"start":"00:58:34.791","start_ms":3514791,"end":"00:58:40.003","end_ms":3520003,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"I think the idea of curating, I'm obsessed with AI, I think it's going to change"},{"start":"00:58:40.003","start_ms":3520003,"end":"00:58:42.534","end_ms":3522534,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"how we approach things. I think it's a tool."},{"start":"00:58:42.874","start_ms":3522874,"end":"00:58:46.835","end_ms":3526835,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"It's just a tool. So we need to use it as a tool and it's not a finality."},{"start":"00:58:46.835","start_ms":3526835,"end":"00:58:49.656","end_ms":3529656,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"It's not just you run it and then you just dump it and that's done."},{"start":"00:58:49.656","start_ms":3529656,"end":"00:58:54.338","end_ms":3534338,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"And if we involve human beings in it and we still have a customization of it,"},{"start":"00:58:54.338","start_ms":3534338,"end":"00:58:58.840","end_ms":3538840,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"you know, and we we curate the result, then then that's the it seems like the"},{"start":"00:58:58.840","start_ms":3538840,"end":"00:58:59.880","end_ms":3539880,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"right approach to do that."},{"start":"00:58:59.880","start_ms":3539880,"end":"00:59:04.582","end_ms":3544582,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"Yeah. Yeah. And maybe Lego is a good metaphor in a sense that it's super standardized."},{"start":"00:59:04.582","start_ms":3544582,"end":"00:59:09.343","end_ms":3549343,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"Like Lego is the most standardized tool you could think of or toy you can think of, right?"},{"start":"00:59:09.343","start_ms":3549343,"end":"00:59:14.025","end_ms":3554025,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"Actually, each block is super boring, but you can build anything out of it."},{"start":"00:59:14.025","start_ms":3554025,"end":"00:59:18.507","end_ms":3558507,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"It's like endless fun, right? And so maybe, yeah, thinking about more like,"},{"start":"00:59:18.507","start_ms":3558507,"end":"00:59:19.987","end_ms":3559987,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"oh, it's building blocks."},{"start":"00:59:19.987","start_ms":3559987,"end":"00:59:23.548","end_ms":3563548,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"It's something you can play with and build stuff out of, you know,"},{"start":"00:59:23.548","start_ms":3563548,"end":"00:59:29.861","end_ms":3569861,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"is a better thought than it's a book of laws. You have to abide to it. Yeah."},{"start":"00:59:29.861","start_ms":3569861,"end":"00:59:33.592","end_ms":3573592,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"It might also help with gatekeeping in a way. Like, I wonder how much,"},{"start":"00:59:33.592","start_ms":3573592,"end":"00:59:37.814","end_ms":3577814,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"when I'm seeing AI mid-journey, like how much of now people who are creative"},{"start":"00:59:37.814","start_ms":3577814,"end":"00:59:42.735","end_ms":3582735,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"but never got the chance to be educated, have the time to learn Photoshop can produce art."},{"start":"00:59:43.056","start_ms":3583056,"end":"00:59:46.257","end_ms":3586257,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"There's so much, obviously it's a little further away from a discussion,"},{"start":"00:59:46.257","start_ms":3586257,"end":"00:59:49.738","end_ms":3589738,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"but automation and all those tools that are going to make our work practical"},{"start":"00:59:49.738","start_ms":3589738,"end":"00:59:52.379","end_ms":3592379,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"is also going to allow more people to join the community of designers."},{"start":"00:59:52.759","start_ms":3592759,"end":"00:59:57.081","end_ms":3597081,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"Like, designers are going to take a bigger, you know, a bigger umbrella,"},{"start":"00:59:57.081","start_ms":3597081,"end":"01:00:01.122","end_ms":3601122,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"maybe we'll have more people with different opinions and different backgrounds."},{"start":"01:00:01.623","start_ms":3601623,"end":"01:00:05.544","end_ms":3605544,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"It's a good point. So the more people we bring in, immediately we have more"},{"start":"01:00:05.544","start_ms":3605544,"end":"01:00:10.326","end_ms":3610326,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"diversity because there's more viewpoints represented. Yeah."},{"start":"01:00:10.326","start_ms":3610326,"end":"01:00:13.087","end_ms":3613087,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"Oh, now I'm thinking about AI plus design systems."},{"start":"01:00:13.368","start_ms":3613368,"end":"01:00:18.050","end_ms":3618050,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"That's such a combination, right? If you had Infigma, like you have your little..."},{"start":"01:00:18.050","start_ms":3618050,"end":"01:00:19.111","end_ms":3619111,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"I've seen some."},{"start":"01:00:19.111","start_ms":3619111,"end":"01:00:20.452","end_ms":3620452,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"Some people are working on some."},{"start":"01:00:20.452","start_ms":3620452,"end":"01:00:21.733","end_ms":3621733,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"It's definitely coming. I'm"},{"start":"01:00:21.733","start_ms":3621733,"end":"01:00:25.515","end_ms":3625515,"speaker":"5","voice":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","text":"like, I don't have to do the components by hand anymore. It'd be great."},{"start":"01:00:25.915","start_ms":3625915,"end":"01:00:30.438","end_ms":3630438,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"That would be kind of nice. Just write a little text. Make all the buttons we need."},{"start":"01:00:30.438","start_ms":3630438,"end":"01:00:37.682","end_ms":3637682,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"And here we go. Yeah. You could also teach, as you said, a design idea or a"},{"start":"01:00:37.682","start_ms":3637682,"end":"01:00:43.666","end_ms":3643666,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"principle or a certain approach and then just see a hundred variations of that."},{"start":"01:00:43.666","start_ms":3643666,"end":"01:00:45.147","end_ms":3645147,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"I think that's exciting."},{"start":"01:00:48.278","start_ms":3648278,"end":"01:00:54.600","end_ms":3654600,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"Cool. So I'm glad there's a positive spin to my slight doubt at the end."},{"start":"01:00:54.600","start_ms":3654600,"end":"01:00:59.682","end_ms":3659682,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"But I think there is an interesting tension there. And it's what I also want to keep exploring."},{"start":"01:01:00.843","start_ms":3660843,"end":"01:01:06.165","end_ms":3666165,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"Like how can we make work that lasts and is really like professional and solves"},{"start":"01:01:06.165","start_ms":3666165,"end":"01:01:08.365","end_ms":3668365,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"people's problems, but also still"},{"start":"01:01:08.365","start_ms":3668365,"end":"01:01:13.347","end_ms":3673347,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"keep things exciting and inspiring and provoking also sometimes, right?"},{"start":"01:01:13.347","start_ms":3673347,"end":"01:01:18.369","end_ms":3678369,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"So I think that's the the eternal design tension that we all have to deal with."},{"start":"01:01:18.369","start_ms":3678369,"end":"01:01:21.870","end_ms":3681870,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"Wonderful. I think that was a great conversation."},{"start":"01:01:22.471","start_ms":3682471,"end":"01:01:27.993","end_ms":3687993,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"I hope we didn't confuse you all with our design system nerd talk."},{"start":"01:01:29.053","start_ms":3689053,"end":"01:01:33.374","end_ms":3693374,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"We'll put a few links in the show notes to the examples we discussed, a few resources."},{"start":"01:01:34.015","start_ms":3694015,"end":"01:01:39.037","end_ms":3699037,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"And yeah, maybe we can do a follow-up episode on AI plus design systems now"},{"start":"01:01:39.037","start_ms":3699037,"end":"01:01:40.417","end_ms":3700417,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"that we're all excited about."},{"start":"01:01:42.538","start_ms":3702538,"end":"01:01:47.280","end_ms":3707280,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"Yeah. In the meantime, thanks for joining me and see you soon."},{"start":"01:01:47.280","start_ms":3707280,"end":"01:01:55.823","end_ms":3715823,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"Thank you, Moritz. Bye-bye. Hey, folks. Thanks for listening to Data Stories again."},{"start":"01:01:56.543","start_ms":3716543,"end":"01:02:00.865","end_ms":3720865,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"Before you leave a few last notes, this show is crowdfunded and you can support"},{"start":"01:02:00.865","start_ms":3720865,"end":"01:02:06.187","end_ms":3726187,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"us on Patreon at patreon.com slash data stories, where we publish monthly previews"},{"start":"01:02:06.187","start_ms":3726187,"end":"01:02:07.927","end_ms":3727927,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"of upcoming episodes for our supporters."},{"start":"01:02:08.808","start_ms":3728808,"end":"01:02:14.930","end_ms":3734930,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"Or you can also send us a one-time donation via PayPal at paypal.me slash data stories."},{"start":"01:02:15.470","start_ms":3735470,"end":"01:02:19.812","end_ms":3739812,"speaker":"2","voice":"Enrico Bertini","text":"Or as a free way to support the show, if you can spend a couple of minutes rating"},{"start":"01:02:19.812","start_ms":3739812,"end":"01:02:22.273","end_ms":3742273,"speaker":"2","voice":"Enrico Bertini","text":"us on iTunes that would be very helpful as well."},{"start":"01:02:23.113","start_ms":3743113,"end":"01:02:26.574","end_ms":3746574,"speaker":"2","voice":"Enrico Bertini","text":"And here's some information on the many ways you can get news directly from"},{"start":"01:02:26.574","start_ms":3746574,"end":"01:02:31.956","end_ms":3751956,"speaker":"2","voice":"Enrico Bertini","text":"us. We are on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram, so follow us there for the latest updates."},{"start":"01:02:32.316","start_ms":3752316,"end":"01:02:36.298","end_ms":3756298,"speaker":"2","voice":"Enrico Bertini","text":"We have also a Slack channel where you can chat with us directly."},{"start":"01:02:36.498","start_ms":3756498,"end":"01:02:42.499","end_ms":3762499,"speaker":"2","voice":"Enrico Bertini","text":"And to sign up, go to our own page at datastory.es and there you'll find a button"},{"start":"01:02:42.499","start_ms":3762499,"end":"01:02:43.680","end_ms":3763680,"speaker":"2","voice":"Enrico Bertini","text":"at the bottom of the page."},{"start":"01:02:43.680","start_ms":3763680,"end":"01:02:47.660","end_ms":3767660,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"And there you can also subscribe to our email newsletter if you want to get"},{"start":"01:02:47.660","start_ms":3767660,"end":"01:02:51.801","end_ms":3771801,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"news directly into your inbox and be notified whenever we publish a new episode."},{"start":"01:02:51.801","start_ms":3771801,"end":"01:02:54.762","end_ms":3774762,"speaker":"2","voice":"Enrico Bertini","text":"That's right! And we love to get in touch with our listeners,"},{"start":"01:02:54.762","start_ms":3774762,"end":"01:02:58.883","end_ms":3778883,"speaker":"2","voice":"Enrico Bertini","text":"so let us know if you want to suggest a way to improve the show or know any"},{"start":"01:02:58.883","start_ms":3778883,"end":"01:03:04.384","end_ms":3784384,"speaker":"2","voice":"Enrico Bertini","text":"amazing people you want us to invite or even have any project you want us to talk about."},{"start":"01:03:04.744","start_ms":3784744,"end":"01:03:10.986","end_ms":3790986,"speaker":"1","voice":"Moritz Stefaner","text":"Yeah, absolutely. hesitate to get in touch, just send us an email at mail at data story dot es."}]