{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":0.515,"endTime":4.037,"body":"Especially when we make guidelines that are going to be used potentially by"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":4.037,"endTime":7.819,"body":"hundreds of people, we have such a responsibility to do them properly."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":28.031,"endTime":32.674,"body":"Hi everyone, welcome to a new episode of Data Stories. My name is Moritz Stefano"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":32.674,"endTime":34.935,"body":"and I'm an independent designer of data visualizations."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":35.776,"endTime":39.757,"body":"In fact, I work as a self-employed truth and beauty operator out of my office"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":39.757,"endTime":41.698,"body":"here in the countryside in the north of Germany."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":42.499,"endTime":46.28,"body":"And usually I record this podcast together with Enrico Bertini,"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":46.28,"endTime":50.462,"body":"who is a professor at Northeastern University in Boston. But today I'm solo."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":51.142,"endTime":55.804,"body":"But luckily I'm joined by two guests today, which you will hear about in a minute."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":56.405,"endTime":60.846,"body":"Just in terms of introductions, on this podcast, we talk about data visualization,"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":60.846,"endTime":64.348,"body":"data analysis, and generally the role data plays in our lives."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":64.348,"endTime":68.7,"body":"The topic today is data design themes, design systems, style guides,"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":68.7,"endTime":70.13,"body":"guidelines, design languages."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":70.491,"endTime":75.633,"body":"You can already see there's a whole cosmos of new formats emerging here in this"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":75.633,"endTime":81.195,"body":"space that we want to explore together today. And hopefully you'll learn something new."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":81.816,"endTime":84.889,"body":"And it's an exciting new emerging field."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":87.173,"endTime":90.294,"body":"I hope we can shed a bit of light on these mysterious terms."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":91.274,"endTime":95.335,"body":"Before we dive right in, just a quick note, our podcast is listener supported."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":95.675,"endTime":100.917,"body":"We don't have any ads. So if you enjoy the show, you might consider supporting"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":100.917,"endTime":105.439,"body":"us. You can do this with recurring payments on patreon.com slash data stories."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":105.439,"endTime":110.251,"body":"So then there's a little donation you do every time we publish an episode."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":110.601,"endTime":115.302,"body":"Or you could also send us one time donations on paypal.me slash data stories."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":115.302,"endTime":119.584,"body":"It's always much appreciated, also small amounts. It just keeps us going."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":119.584,"endTime":124.806,"body":"And we also have a bit of cost, so any contribution you can make is super appreciated."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":125.546,"endTime":132.708,"body":"If you don't have or don't want to do monetary support, you can also just support"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":132.708,"endTime":134.729,"body":"us on social media or give us a good rating."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":135.349,"endTime":138.23,"body":"Anything helps. And if not, it's also fine. Just keep listening."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":138.771,"endTime":140.211,"body":"Anyways, let's get started."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":141.091,"endTime":147.814,"body":"Let's dive right in. And now I can reveal our guests. our guests today are Gabrielle and Alain. Hi."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":147.814,"endTime":148.714,"body":"Hi, Moritz."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":148.714,"endTime":153.756,"body":"Hello. Thanks for joining me. Quick introduction. So Gabrielle,"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":153.756,"endTime":155.757,"body":"can you tell us a bit about yourself?"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":155.757,"endTime":161.84,"body":"Yeah. Hi, I'm Gabrielle Merite. I'm French. I'm an independent information designer."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":161.84,"endTime":167.142,"body":"So I help ethically driven organization uncover important truth and share stories"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":167.142,"endTime":169.523,"body":"with intention backed by data."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":170.303,"endTime":176.446,"body":"And I'm also currently, for another month, the senior DeDeviz designer at Pentagram"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":176.446,"endTime":178.386,"body":"in the team of Georgia Alubi."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":178.386,"endTime":182.248,"body":"Which we also had on the show a few times and who's of course well known."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":183.088,"endTime":185.649,"body":"And yeah, it's exciting to see you two work together."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":185.81,"endTime":187.27,"body":"Yeah, the incredible Georgia."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":189.911,"endTime":190.751,"body":"Ellen, how about you?"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":191.832,"endTime":194.952,"body":"Yeah, I'm Alan Wilson. I'm a principal designer at Adobe."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":196.91,"endTime":202.232,"body":"Where I work primarily on the experience cloud, which is Adobe's enterprise"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":202.232,"endTime":208.694,"body":"business. We make marketing software and other tools to help large organizations"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":208.694,"endTime":211.795,"body":"keep their messaging and help their customers."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":212.716,"endTime":218.358,"body":"And I guess the main thing that we'll be discussing today is my contributions"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":218.358,"endTime":221.879,"body":"to the design system at Adobe, which is called Spectrum. Right."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":221.879,"endTime":227.831,"body":"Yes. And this is also how we got in touch around two years ago because I started"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":227.831,"endTime":233.153,"body":"working together with Core, an agency in the UK on a design system for the World Health Organization."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":233.483,"endTime":240.965,"body":"And yeah, and we sort of uncovered this whole world of wow, there's so much"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":240.965,"endTime":242.006,"body":"happening in this space."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":242.006,"endTime":246.507,"body":"And it's also really hard to orient yourself. Like it sounds so easy if somebody"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":246.507,"endTime":250.249,"body":"says, oh, we need some database style guide or guidelines."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":250.249,"endTime":252.569,"body":"Can you help us do that? You know, everybody's like, yeah, sure,"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":252.569,"endTime":256.751,"body":"that sounds great. And then once you look into, oh, what do we do?"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":256.751,"endTime":260.392,"body":"What do we actually do now? What do we offer? What's the format?"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":260.893,"endTime":264.234,"body":"What's the scope of the whole project? You realize, oh, it's not even that clear."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":264.234,"endTime":268.156,"body":"And everybody needs to figure out what they're doing in that space."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":269.396,"endTime":274.058,"body":"And so, yeah, so there's so many flavors and approaches you can do."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":274.058,"endTime":279.12,"body":"And so, yeah, I got in touch with you, Alan, and a few other folks who have"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":279.12,"endTime":284.002,"body":"experience in the field to help us guide along a bit. And here we are."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":286.703,"endTime":290.004,"body":"So I know both of you have been working on these types of projects."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":290.004,"endTime":294.686,"body":"So before we go into all the nuances, what the differences between different"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":294.686,"endTime":298.768,"body":"subgenres are, maybe we can start with the purpose."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":298.768,"endTime":302.809,"body":"What, in your experience, do people hope to achieve when they start building"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":302.809,"endTime":303.81,"body":"a design style guide or start formulating design guidelines?"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":303.81,"endTime":308.572,"body":"Building a design style guide or start formulating design guidelines."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":308.992,"endTime":312.729,"body":"What do you think? What's the hope connected to that? Or what's the value to"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":312.729,"endTime":315.175,"body":"an organization to have something like that?"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":315.935,"endTime":322.878,"body":"I guess I'll go first. I think the main value is answering questions, right?"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":323.918,"endTime":328.7,"body":"As organizations grow, you have to coordinate a lot more to make sure that you"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":328.7,"endTime":331.061,"body":"as a group have a coordinated voice."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":331.061,"endTime":337.543,"body":"Space. Questions are very common, right? What font should I use?"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":337.543,"endTime":339.164,"body":"What are our standard colors?"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":339.504,"endTime":342.985,"body":"How do we lay out this particular document type?"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":346.067,"endTime":349.748,"body":"People need standards to communicate in a unified way."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":351.469,"endTime":355.971,"body":"One of the things I like about this space is there's just such a broad range"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":355.971,"endTime":359.556,"body":"as you already touched on of ways to answer those questions."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":360.237,"endTime":361.839,"body":"But for me, it's all about."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":362.821,"endTime":368.603,"body":"Helping people do their jobs more effectively and efficiently by answering questions"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":368.603,"endTime":370.623,"body":"that they have a difficult time answering on their own."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":370.623,"endTime":371.524,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":371.524,"endTime":372.544,"body":"I love that answer."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":374.145,"endTime":376.546,"body":"Yeah, that seems pretty comprehensive already."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":376.546,"endTime":380.427,"body":"Yeah, I had a way more like strict like dot list. Yeah."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":381.407,"endTime":387.95,"body":"But I love that answer of answering question because I think it answers a lot on the definition."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":388.57,"endTime":393.452,"body":"I see, on mine, I kind of see like four kind of point of values."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":395.132,"endTime":398.614,"body":"Efficiency, just the idea of answering questions faster."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":399.514,"endTime":403.815,"body":"So just people being able to reuse design to know what to do."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":404.336,"endTime":406.096,"body":"All these things come into efficiency."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":408.637,"endTime":411.578,"body":"Consistency, which I think is the one that people don't always see."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":411.578,"endTime":416.32,"body":"But for an organization, being able to reproduce a design over and over or reuse"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":416.32,"endTime":420.942,"body":"some time of... set of rules and principle that they can build upon, scale."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":421.962,"endTime":424.123,"body":"And I think Alan is going to know that more than me."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":426.424,"endTime":431.225,"body":"And then the one that I don't see often, but to add pentagram in my work that's"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":431.225,"endTime":432.446,"body":"been pretty important, which is recognizability."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":435.227,"endTime":438.668,"body":"So in those guidelines in Style Guide, the idea of being able to produce something"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":438.668,"endTime":441.829,"body":"that is recognized by an audience, like brand them."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":442.25,"endTime":445.891,"body":"And we don't talk about that often in data viz, but that's really important"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":445.891,"endTime":447.691,"body":"to me when creating style guides."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":447.691,"endTime":453.574,"body":"Yeah. Yeah. And in the like more branding and PR and advertising world,"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":453.574,"endTime":455.674,"body":"brand guidelines are super common, right?"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":455.674,"endTime":459.156,"body":"And often we just receive them as, oh, here are our brand guidelines."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":459.156,"endTime":462.717,"body":"Can you make sure the charts, you know, fit into that?"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":462.717,"endTime":468.299,"body":"Right. And so, yeah, that's already where we touch these wider like communication"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":468.299,"endTime":472.44,"body":"contexts. But in this world, it's very common to have like a big book with the"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":472.44,"endTime":475.507,"body":"fonts we use, these are the colors we have. This is how we pick photos."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":475.929,"endTime":478.816,"body":"You don't crop photos like this, you crop them like that and so on."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":478.816,"endTime":482.645,"body":"And yeah, I think in database it's a bit more new that we would,"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":483.314,"endTime":487.536,"body":"be so explicit about this is our approach, right? Yeah."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":487.536,"endTime":492.158,"body":"I think one of the reasons data is emerging more and more in the style guide"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":492.158,"endTime":495.499,"body":"space is because people are using it more and they have more questions about it."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":496.78,"endTime":500.341,"body":"So we're traditionally style guides focused on how you use the logo and how"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":500.341,"endTime":504.042,"body":"you use photography and other visuals to communicate."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":504.422,"endTime":508.124,"body":"People are using charts to communicate and they have questions about how to best do that."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":508.124,"endTime":513.506,"body":"Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it's a natural evolution of us actually mattering, which is good."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":513.506,"endTime":518.767,"body":"Yeah, precisely. And there's this idea of like, you know, authority."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":519.588,"endTime":524.229,"body":"I think in the world where trust is hard to gain, for organizations that have"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":524.229,"endTime":527.771,"body":"gained that trust or are trying to gain that trust, having that recognizability"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":527.771,"endTime":534.263,"body":"of like, oh, this specific data visualization is coming from this institution that I'm familiar with."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":534.573,"endTime":537.534,"body":"And I can recognize that a very first look seems really important."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":538.635,"endTime":539.975,"body":"In the public discourse."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":539.975,"endTime":545.358,"body":"Yeah. Cool. So I think we have the motivation is clear."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":545.358,"endTime":549.64,"body":"So you want consistency, you want a scale design, you want to make sure all"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":549.64,"endTime":552.801,"body":"outputs coming from one source have a minimum level of quality,"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":552.801,"endTime":557.323,"body":"they're recognizable, they look from the same family at least."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":561.426,"endTime":567.178,"body":"And not have to be a mysterious process process that some gifted rock star designers"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":567.178,"endTime":571.149,"body":"can only do, but sort of scale the capability to anybody."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":572.89,"endTime":576.552,"body":"Ideally, right, that, oh, with the right ruleset and the right tools and the"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":576.552,"endTime":581.134,"body":"right building blocks, anybody can now make a chart that looks like coming from"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":581.134,"endTime":582.854,"body":"that organization and is solid."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":585.387,"endTime":589.429,"body":"That's the hope. It's a big goal, of course. But now we're looking into,"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":589.429,"endTime":591.11,"body":"okay, how can we enable that?"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":591.11,"endTime":596.352,"body":"What are the things we can supply? And this is super crucial to be clear about that."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":596.352,"endTime":601.374,"body":"That's a trap I ran into in a few projects that we weren't really clear what"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":601.374,"endTime":605.636,"body":"the difference is between a style guide or a guidelines or a component system."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":605.636,"endTime":609.417,"body":"System. I like all these things. And then you realize, oh, they actually wanted"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":609.417,"endTime":613.839,"body":"to have a big book with lots of data with do's and don'ts."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":613.839,"endTime":617.241,"body":"And we were like, oh, we thought we're just designing a database theme,"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":617.241,"endTime":619.181,"body":"like pick some colors, right."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":619.181,"endTime":624.263,"body":"And so there's a whole spectrum of possible outputs you can have, right."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":624.263,"endTime":627.885,"body":"And maybe let's talk about a few of them."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":627.885,"endTime":632.747,"body":"And I try to organize it from small to big. So I think the smallest thing is"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":632.747,"endTime":637.57,"body":"probably like a design theme, where you say like, these are the colors and fonts"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":637.57,"endTime":641.051,"body":"you can use for a given charge or something like this."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":641.852,"endTime":645.734,"body":"And maybe a brand has multiple themes like a light theme and a dark theme."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":646.495,"endTime":651.037,"body":"It's like a skin you can apply to a chart like an Excel template type thing maybe."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":652.658,"endTime":657.88,"body":"Then the next step is maybe a design system. Alan, is Spectrum a design system?"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":658.221,"endTime":659.661,"body":"Where's Spectrum on that ladder?"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":659.661,"endTime":664.384,"body":"Yeah, Spectrum is a design system and I would put it further down,"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":664.384,"endTime":666.565,"body":"maybe even at the very bottom."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":666.565,"endTime":669.907,"body":"At the bottom. I'm also in the bottom."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":669.907,"endTime":670.207,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":673.099,"endTime":676.26,"body":"When I think design system, I think the difference between"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":676.26,"endTime":679.201,"body":"a design system and a style guide or a theme"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":679.201,"endTime":684.663,"body":"or just a set of guidelines is a design system has infrastructure behind it"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":684.663,"endTime":691.646,"body":"So that when you make a change those changes roll out into all the places that"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":691.646,"endTime":697.988,"body":"they need to maybe there's also software components that exactly implement that stuff and Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":697.988,"endTime":702.97,"body":"yeah And it provides resources for all parties that are involved."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":702.97,"endTime":706.091,"body":"So the designers get the design assets they need,"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":706.091,"endTime":710.123,"body":"the engineers have the engineering components that they're going to use,"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":710.123,"endTime":715.575,"body":"and anyone else in the organization has the guidelines and materials,"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":715.575,"endTime":718.496,"body":"templates, things they need to do their work."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":719.556,"endTime":724.858,"body":"And so, okay, cool. So we have design themes, automated in the design system,"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":724.858,"endTime":725.738,"body":"and super well documented."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":726.639,"endTime":729.2,"body":"So then how about guidelines and style guides?"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":729.94,"endTime":734.062,"body":"How does that fit in? I don't know how Alan feels about it to me."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":734.062,"endTime":738.803,"body":"So I work hard on that one. I was like, is there a difference between guidelines and style guides?"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":739.424,"endTime":743.225,"body":"And I think we use it pretty freely in the design world."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":743.225,"endTime":747.927,"body":"It kind of, we use it, at least in the, you know, bright side of things,"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":747.927,"endTime":750.488,"body":"we use it kind of like whatever, we can exchange them."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":750.488,"endTime":753.649,"body":"However, I could see a difference where for me, like one guideline could be"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":753.649,"endTime":758.39,"body":"like do and don'ts versus a style guide is kind of putting all those guidelines together."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":759.551,"endTime":763.753,"body":"So to me, style guide is a collection of rule. You know, it tells you what you're"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":763.753,"endTime":766.153,"body":"allowed to do and not to do given a context."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":768.465,"endTime":772.056,"body":"And I guess I'm going to go one step further, but there's to me,"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":772.056,"endTime":776.177,"body":"the style guide, if you think about, if you remove style and you just keep guide,"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":776.177,"endTime":780.979,"body":"then you can also include elements of voice again, to that branding element."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":780.979,"endTime":784.7,"body":"So not just doing dance on design, on color choices, but yes,"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":784.7,"endTime":787.621,"body":"on tonality, on content, on way"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":787.621,"endTime":792.443,"body":"more than just the look and feel and the practicality of design elements."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":792.443,"endTime":795.044,"body":"So that's how I see the difference in guideline and style guides,"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":795.044,"endTime":798.765,"body":"but in the design world, we definitely use them almost as exchangeable."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":799.466,"endTime":802.787,"body":"And that part cannot be automated or implemented well in software,"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":802.787,"endTime":805.847,"body":"right? Like, how do you automate tonality?"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":807.269,"endTime":813.891,"body":"Can you? I don't know. But at least, let's say, a style guide or design guidelines"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":813.891,"endTime":818.113,"body":"are usually targeted at people making charts. Right? Is that fair to say?"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":818.113,"endTime":821.674,"body":"I mean, I think all of these are targeted at people making charts."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":821.674,"endTime":827.116,"body":"But to Gabriel's point, some focus more on the aesthetic part of the problems"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":827.116,"endTime":828.376,"body":"and the aesthetic questions."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":828.817,"endTime":834.338,"body":"And others focus on the technical questions and implementations and things and"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":834.338,"endTime":835.859,"body":"systemize things a bit more."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":835.859,"endTime":836.159,"body":"More."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":839.22,"endTime":844.161,"body":"Yeah, so you can see already, it's this muddy mess of people,"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":844.161,"endTime":845.061,"body":"machines, data, audiences."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":848.963,"endTime":852.965,"body":"It's an exciting space. And then really think about, okay, how can we abstract"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":852.965,"endTime":857.246,"body":"principles there and re-covering rules and not just solve problems once,"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":857.246,"endTime":862.568,"body":"but more or less for once and all, which is of course the hard part."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":863.588,"endTime":867.37,"body":"It's funny because it reminds me of what Alan was saying about the design system."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":869.09,"endTime":873.185,"body":"So at least just like Alain had placed it at the end, to me it's what encompasses"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":873.185,"endTime":877.193,"body":"everything, including Style Guide, but also design theme, design language,"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":877.193,"endTime":881.815,"body":"like the actual components and little design elements, like templates that you may have created."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":882.535,"endTime":887.897,"body":"And I would call it a repository of institutional knowledge that solves problems,"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":887.897,"endTime":891.058,"body":"that keeps happening. Like that's how I would define it probably without even"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":891.058,"endTime":892.618,"body":"putting like what it is inside."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":893.619,"endTime":898.941,"body":"It's just a big, big, big repository and it can be flexible depending on your institution."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":898.941,"endTime":900.702,"body":"Yeah, right."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":900.702,"endTime":909.366,"body":"Yeah. I think another thing worth calling out is that sometimes data visualization is its own thing."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":909.366,"endTime":913.488,"body":"There is a datavis style guide, and it lives up separate from the brand guide"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":913.488,"endTime":916.759,"body":"and the user interface guidelines and other resources."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":918.611,"endTime":923.213,"body":"But more and more, we're seeing all three of those things. And other things as well come to,"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":935.319,"endTime":937.799,"body":"content guidelines in important ways that we need to account for."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":937.799,"endTime":938.399,"body":"Yeah. Yeah."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":940.208,"endTime":945.07,"body":"Yeah, so there's a lot of overlaps with adjacent, maybe other design systems,"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":945.07,"endTime":949.952,"body":"like the branding or the UI design, and we need to see how we fit in with all of that."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":951.213,"endTime":956.955,"body":"I guess what's unique to data visualization is often the extra design vocabulary you need,"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":956.955,"endTime":962.557,"body":"like specific color scales that work, have certain functional properties or"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":962.557,"endTime":969.4,"body":"or chart types and all the things we're all familiar with, legends and axes and whatnot."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":970.6,"endTime":974.882,"body":"Yeah, one of the challenges with writing guidelines for data is that differs"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":974.882,"endTime":981.564,"body":"from brand guidelines and others is some of the other areas are just self-evident"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":981.564,"endTime":983.645,"body":"and really easy to explain the guidelines for."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":984.266,"endTime":989.207,"body":"And data visualization has its own language and its own set of things."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":990.588,"endTime":996.89,"body":"I mean, it intersects with data literacy and some specific domain expertise"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":996.89,"endTime":998.801,"body":"that you might need to be effective."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":1000.052,"endTime":1003.092,"body":"And often I find myself in writing the guidelines, I'm like,"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":1003.092,"endTime":1005.994,"body":"man, I need them also to read these books."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":1005.994,"endTime":1011.375,"body":"Or I find myself wanting to teach data visualization as a discipline,"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":1011.375,"endTime":1015.517,"body":"and then I can give them guidelines on how to best use visualization."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":1016.898,"endTime":1021.559,"body":"And if you don't have that foundation, sometimes the guidelines come off a bit"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":1021.559,"endTime":1023.42,"body":"short because they have to be so basic."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1025.2,"endTime":1026.28,"body":"Yeah, same problem here."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":1027.621,"endTime":1031.823,"body":"Yeah, and maybe that's the first real learning I think we all share probably"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":1031.823,"endTime":1035.924,"body":"is like, you really need to define really well what the purpose of the whole"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":1035.924,"endTime":1038.345,"body":"thing is and what your audience is."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":1038.345,"endTime":1043.297,"body":"Like, is it skilled information designers that use it or should it be implemented"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":1043.297,"endTime":1047.508,"body":"in an automated system or should it be for total novices,"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":1047.508,"endTime":1052.03,"body":"like a foolproof system, because that will shape everything in terms of what"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":1052.03,"endTime":1055.231,"body":"do we even supply people with and in which form, right?"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":1055.231,"endTime":1060.394,"body":"And yeah, I think if you skip that step, it's going to fall on your feet really soon."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":1062.315,"endTime":1064.115,"body":"That's my experience at least."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":1066.937,"endTime":1071.058,"body":"But maybe to make this a bit more concrete, maybe we can talk about some of"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":1071.058,"endTime":1073.239,"body":"the projects you've been working on in that space."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":1073.239,"endTime":1077.541,"body":"That gives people a bit of an idea of, okay, what are the different challenges"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":1077.541,"endTime":1082.323,"body":"and the different types of flavors that exist? So, Alan, do you want to talk"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":1082.323,"endTime":1083.623,"body":"a bit about Adobe Spectrum?"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":1083.623,"endTime":1089.646,"body":"Sure, sure. So Adobe Spectrum is our design system."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":1090.627,"endTime":1093.167,"body":"If you want to take a look at it, you can find it at spectrum.adobe.com. And,"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":1098.054,"endTime":1100.875,"body":"Yeah, the first thing I want to point out is that it's a whole team."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":1100.875,"endTime":1102.316,"body":"There's a lot of people involved."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":1102.696,"endTime":1108.738,"body":"And so I am a small piece of that whole ecosystem that builds and maintains that."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":1110.939,"endTime":1115.501,"body":"And the design system was about two years old before we introduced the data viz guidelines."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":1116.721,"endTime":1120.943,"body":"We really struggled to articulate and structure the guidelines in a way that"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":1120.943,"endTime":1123.644,"body":"would make sense and be relevant to our users."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":1124.704,"endTime":1127.445,"body":"And we still have a long way to go. I feel like the guidelines right now are"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":1127.445,"endTime":1133.828,"body":"pretty basic, but yeah, we have that. And the primary purpose of our guideline"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":1133.828,"endTime":1136.048,"body":"is to help people who are building software."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":1136.048,"endTime":1137.089,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":1137.089,"endTime":1143.131,"body":"So it is used for our, you know, dot com website and some other things,"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":1143.131,"endTime":1149.133,"body":"but the primary focus is for how do we build, you know, really good software using that system."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":1149.133,"endTime":1151.914,"body":"Cool. Gabrielle, how about you?"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1151.914,"endTime":1156.442,"body":"So I worked on quite a couple and I can't talk about everything."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1156.884,"endTime":1158.988,"body":"So I'll talk about the one I'm publicly allowed to."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1159.91,"endTime":1163.075,"body":"I think the one that's the most public that you can see on the pentagram website"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1163.075,"endTime":1164.338,"body":"is the Deloitte insight."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1165.904,"endTime":1168.524,"body":"It's a guideline and templates, so it's not full design systems."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1169.645,"endTime":1171.446,"body":"And so, DeLaw Insight is a magazine."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1171.806,"endTime":1174.187,"body":"It also has a web platform attached to it."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1176.028,"endTime":1179.309,"body":"And previously, before I even joined Pentagram, the team with George Ilobby"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1179.309,"endTime":1182.27,"body":"had actually built guidelines for them before editorial database."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1183.11,"endTime":1187.052,"body":"So, we're more creative application. So, that was used only by information designer"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1187.052,"endTime":1189.673,"body":"that already knew the roles and were pretty comfortable with it."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1190.273,"endTime":1194.775,"body":"Talking about audience here. And the issue that came back when they came back"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1194.775,"endTime":1198.616,"body":"was that we cannot give those guidelines pretty much to our normal designers."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1198.616,"endTime":1204.789,"body":"So the team actually use external, a lot of external designers that are around"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1204.789,"endTime":1207.62,"body":"the world with different backgrounds from different countries."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1207.62,"endTime":1210.841,"body":"And they produce like hundreds of data viz per month."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1211.581,"endTime":1216.663,"body":"And they're quite fast, so fast turnaround, you know, little supervision."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1216.983,"endTime":1220.905,"body":"So we were in contact with more of the creative direction marketing data this"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1220.905,"endTime":1224.926,"body":"team within the organization, not so much the designers."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1225.327,"endTime":1230.558,"body":"So we had to create templates and guidelines knowing that we have no contact"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1230.558,"endTime":1232.529,"body":"with the final designer that's going to use them."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1233.01,"endTime":1237.531,"body":"And they are not specialized in information design, not always at least."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1237.531,"endTime":1240.812,"body":"And they have a high turnaround themselves because they're external contractors."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":1241.793,"endTime":1243.093,"body":"So it had to be pretty... It's really"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":1243.093,"endTime":1246.494,"body":"hard mode. It's like all the hard parameters are switched on, right?"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1246.655,"endTime":1252.697,"body":"Yeah, it had to be pretty strict. And also, we were working for both web and print."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":1252.697,"endTime":1253.617,"body":"Of course."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1253.617,"endTime":1256.538,"body":"Why not? So just to add a little bit to that."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":1256.538,"endTime":1258.999,"body":"So yeah, and a bit of spice, you know."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1258.999,"endTime":1262.921,"body":"And the law inside covers any themes, so it can be any type of data,"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1262.921,"endTime":1266.462,"body":"whether it's about people, but you know, economic, like anything,"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1266.462,"endTime":1269.263,"body":"everything, throw it in together in one package."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1270.204,"endTime":1275.605,"body":"So that was probably one that I can talk quite a bit on. And the other one is"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1275.605,"endTime":1278.126,"body":"for a nonprofit organization that I cannot name."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1278.707,"endTime":1282.928,"body":"They work in the gender equality space. And this one was tricky because we had"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1282.928,"endTime":1286.729,"body":"to do it and they hadn't produced any work yet."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1287.35,"endTime":1293.112,"body":"It was made simultaneously to a brand. And so they knew what type of data they were working with."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1293.932,"endTime":1297.433,"body":"But they had not produced anything. So we didn't have anything to even review."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1297.433,"endTime":1301.535,"body":"We had to do from start and we had to make sure it would be used by designers"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1301.535,"endTime":1306.076,"body":"and non-designers for social media, PowerPoints, anything possible."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1306.817,"endTime":1310.618,"body":"So that was another challenge on really sensitive topics too."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1310.618,"endTime":1313.519,"body":"So definitely interesting different challenges here."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":1315.06,"endTime":1320.121,"body":"Yeah, so you can see already it's quite different requirements and you need"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":1320.121,"endTime":1324.783,"body":"to be smart about what you do, right? And how that will play out."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":1324.783,"endTime":1328.937,"body":"So maybe talking about process, then how do you..."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":1330.721,"endTime":1335.103,"body":"Address this? Like, do you first build a lot of chart examples,"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":1335.103,"endTime":1339.064,"body":"like in your design team, and then say like, okay, what are the recurring patterns?"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":1339.064,"endTime":1343.876,"body":"What seems to work? What doesn't seem to work? Or do you do it more top down in terms of,"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":1343.876,"endTime":1347.399,"body":"okay, we have the following principles, we have the following project constraints,"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":1347.399,"endTime":1351.249,"body":"you know, and sort of do it very like deductive in the sense that,"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":1351.249,"endTime":1357.071,"body":"okay, only one solution, you know, seems to work anymore, now that we have like defined everything?"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":1357.632,"endTime":1363.153,"body":"Or is it a mixture? Like, how did you address these? How did you approach this"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":1363.153,"endTime":1365.014,"body":"project? Maybe Gabby, you can."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1365.454,"endTime":1369.676,"body":"Okay, I'll start. It might be very different because we so we even me as an"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1369.676,"endTime":1372.637,"body":"independent or within Pentagram, we are external contractors."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1373.457,"endTime":1376.938,"body":"So we don't have access to everything internally in the organization that might"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1376.938,"endTime":1379.439,"body":"be quite different than the way Alan works typically."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1380.98,"endTime":1384.201,"body":"So the way I like to work is I start with what I call analysis phase,"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1384.201,"endTime":1388.683,"body":"which is just looking at obviously who the organization is."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1388.683,"endTime":1391.984,"body":"The more classic design brief analysis of who the client is,"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1391.984,"endTime":1394.725,"body":"what do they know, what do they don't know."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1394.725,"endTime":1397.966,"body":"So if they have data visits, it's great because it gives you a great insight"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1397.966,"endTime":1400.647,"body":"on what has been produced, what type of data do they work with,"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1400.647,"endTime":1403.888,"body":"what are the mistakes they keep making, what are the problems they keep."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1403.888,"endTime":1406.409,"body":"You can even have a whole almost user research phase."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":1406.409,"endTime":1410.45,"body":"So the idea is to... First the diagnosis, then the prescription, right?"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1412.731,"endTime":1416.372,"body":"Yeah, a little bit. But just identifying existing useful patterns,"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1416.372,"endTime":1420.854,"body":"things that have worked too and things that are not working in the current applications,"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1420.854,"endTime":1422.435,"body":"and who is working with it."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1422.435,"endTime":1425.276,"body":"It's way harder when we have a project, like I was talking earlier,"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1425.276,"endTime":1429.737,"body":"where we don't have access to those existing applications, because there's none."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1431.278,"endTime":1434.129,"body":"But there's always a base somewhere of what data are they going to use?"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1434.619,"endTime":1435.959,"body":"Where is it going to be published?"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1436.64,"endTime":1440.241,"body":"So I like the science in space and understanding, again, who is going to use the guidelines and,"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1442.164,"endTime":1445.065,"body":"This is the audience of the guidelines. So is it designer or non-designer?"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1445.385,"endTime":1446.925,"body":"Because it's not always for designer."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1447.406,"endTime":1450.587,"body":"But also who's the final audience of the data visualization?"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1451.007,"endTime":1452.687,"body":"So there's a second layer."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":1452.687,"endTime":1453.808,"body":"It's a double hop."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1454.388,"endTime":1458.87,"body":"Yeah, there's a double hop here of like, OK, typically, if you work for a nonprofit,"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1458.87,"endTime":1462.231,"body":"the final product is going to be a public, a very uninformed public,"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1462.231,"endTime":1466.152,"body":"or on a sensitive topic. So what are the constraints already that I impose on"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1466.152,"endTime":1468.683,"body":"the project? So there's all this analysis phase."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1469.394,"endTime":1473.155,"body":"And then I guess it's a bit of a mix match. What I like to do is a bit more of like,"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1473.155,"endTime":1478.997,"body":"if it doesn't exist anymore, it's kind of like doing design first and then link"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1478.997,"endTime":1483.979,"body":"that back to the foundation of, I find it difficult to build the foundation"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1483.979,"endTime":1485.679,"body":"first, decide the colors, everything"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1485.679,"endTime":1487.86,"body":"without testing them, because you're gonna end up changing them."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1488.22,"endTime":1491.861,"body":"So I tend to, even if the project doesn't include making templates,"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1491.861,"endTime":1495.143,"body":"kind of templatize a little bit, like test out some basic charts or things they"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1495.143,"endTime":1500.224,"body":"use regularly to see if we can start finding patterns and put that back into guidelines."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1501.605,"endTime":1506.407,"body":"So that's kind of how it works. The only added thing that I do and then Pentagram"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1506.407,"endTime":1510.328,"body":"does too is what we call creative direction, which is maybe a little different"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1510.328,"endTime":1511.708,"body":"than a traditional style gal,"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1511.708,"endTime":1515.93,"body":"which we're trying to find what makes those these evolutions stand out."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1515.93,"endTime":1520.311,"body":"How do we connect them to the voice of the brand?"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1521.472,"endTime":1525.593,"body":"And so it's not just through just colors and typefaces, but is there something"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1525.593,"endTime":1528.674,"body":"specific, a specific way of a specific shape you use systematically."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1529.915,"endTime":1531.455,"body":"So not just basic charts."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":1531.455,"endTime":1536.417,"body":"Like an actual design idea in a sense that there is, there's like a design approach to it."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1536.417,"endTime":1539.878,"body":"Is there a metaphor that we can use throughout? Is there something that makes"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1539.878,"endTime":1543.719,"body":"it stand out that's just not a design decision, but that makes it unique?"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1544.039,"endTime":1547.641,"body":"And so that is a little more, on the creative side, that's less common."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1547.801,"endTime":1551.962,"body":"And then it's even harder to explain in Style Guides. But it's part of that"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1551.962,"endTime":1555.283,"body":"thinking. And then usually you test that on basic chart and then you test that"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1555.283,"endTime":1560.424,"body":"on editorialized charts because all client usually needs editorial charts and not the most basic."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1560.5,"endTime":1564.282,"body":"You know, the most traditional charts, just to check if it works in conjunction"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1564.282,"endTime":1568.143,"body":"with other organizational systems, like does it work in a magazine spread,"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1568.143,"endTime":1569.644,"body":"does it work in social media format?"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1571.104,"endTime":1575.846,"body":"And then we systemize that and we put that all together in like extended guidelines."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":1575.846,"endTime":1579.927,"body":"Yeah, but there's an interesting tension because of course you and Georgia of"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":1579.927,"endTime":1584.049,"body":"course are typically known and booked for a super creative, unique,"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":1584.049,"endTime":1586.35,"body":"one of a kind work, right?"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":1586.35,"endTime":1592.432,"body":"And now the expectation is you do that, but also make it repeatable. Right?"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1592.892,"endTime":1595.253,"body":"And so I think there's an interesting tension there."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":1595.253,"endTime":1596.233,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1596.233,"endTime":1599.694,"body":"It's definitely a challenge. It's actually quite interesting because we end up creating,"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1599.694,"endTime":1603.836,"body":"to me, it's almost like I split the guidelines into traditional charts with"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1603.836,"endTime":1607.837,"body":"the most traditional bar charts, bar charts, whatever you need to have that"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1607.837,"endTime":1610.418,"body":"needs to be made in PowerPoint, like we've got custom design,"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1610.418,"endTime":1613.199,"body":"especially if we have users that are not designers."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1613.199,"endTime":1617.881,"body":"So PowerPoint, Canvas, RowGraph, the easy building building blocks that can"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1617.881,"endTime":1621.542,"body":"be reproduced and used for anything we port. But then we usually have a second"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1621.542,"endTime":1624.303,"body":"section that's for designers, an information designer."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1625.303,"endTime":1629.065,"body":"And sometimes it can overlap a little bit. It can be very simple things that"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1629.065,"endTime":1632.506,"body":"you can do. Adding a shadow, adding a texture, photography."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1633.726,"endTime":1637.407,"body":"How do you use photography? Do you crop it? Do you not crop it? Is it textured?"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1637.768,"endTime":1643.029,"body":"Is it black and white? Does it use a color? So this is something that we add"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1643.029,"endTime":1647.931,"body":"that's almost branding and that adds customization into the guidelines."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":1647.931,"endTime":1652.453,"body":"Cool. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And yeah, it's super interesting."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":1652.853,"endTime":1656.454,"body":"Ellen, I could imagine your process is totally different because you don't work"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":1656.454,"endTime":1662.416,"body":"in an agency, but it's more this ongoing big ship instead of the little dinghy"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":1662.416,"endTime":1664.577,"body":"with the little party on it."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":1664.577,"endTime":1668.498,"body":"Yeah, yeah. Earlier in my career, I worked for agency."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":1669.799,"endTime":1673.4,"body":"And we did a lot of brand guides and things of that nature, which certainly"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":1673.4,"endTime":1677.962,"body":"informed a lot of the work that I do now, but yeah, it is different."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":1677.962,"endTime":1682.804,"body":"And I do think there's no one process for this stuff. It really is,"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":1682.804,"endTime":1688.586,"body":"part of the problem here is figuring out what an organization needs and how"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":1688.586,"endTime":1689.926,"body":"you can best deliver that."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":1691.847,"endTime":1696.329,"body":"But for us, and one of the advantages of being an internal team is we can deliver"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":1696.329,"endTime":1699.63,"body":"things incrementally, right? It's not a single deliverable."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":1701.531,"endTime":1705.172,"body":"We can do something and then add to that over time."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":1705.772,"endTime":1710.694,"body":"And so that's the approach that we've taken is, and we try and prioritize the"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":1710.694,"endTime":1714.015,"body":"most important, most valuable, the things that are gonna have the biggest impact"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":1714.015,"endTime":1715.416,"body":"and then keep adding to that."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":1715.896,"endTime":1720.487,"body":"And at some point we'll reach a threshold where, the incremental value isn't"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":1720.487,"endTime":1721.898,"body":"worth the incremental cost."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":1723.099,"endTime":1726.78,"body":"Be that, actually monetary costs are just costing complexity because as your"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":1726.78,"endTime":1733.314,"body":"system grows, You can't grow indefinitely or it becomes unusable because it's"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":1733.314,"endTime":1734.427,"body":"too big and too complicated."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":1737.155,"endTime":1741.897,"body":"Starting to run up against the bounds of what we feel is an appropriate level of complexity."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":1742.237,"endTime":1747.859,"body":"But yeah, we do start with the end in mind."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":1747.859,"endTime":1753.361,"body":"So we'll often produce a lot of example screens and visualizations and UIs and"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":1753.361,"endTime":1761.443,"body":"then write the guidelines that would produce those, if that makes sense. So we work backwards."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":1761.443,"endTime":1766.225,"body":"Retrofit, basically. What would have been the rules that would have made these"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":1766.225,"endTime":1768.106,"body":"choice that obviously seem to work."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":1768.106,"endTime":1773.197,"body":"Exactly. I feel like that's a good approach."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":1774.988,"endTime":1778.689,"body":"But at some point you have enough guidelines that you don't have to start with"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":1778.689,"endTime":1782.57,"body":"the end and you can just take what's existing and expand it a little and then"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":1782.57,"endTime":1786.632,"body":"see what comes out of it. Yeah."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":1786.632,"endTime":1790.413,"body":"That's something we also struggled with a lot is you want to get started somewhere"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":1790.413,"endTime":1795.815,"body":"and build stuff and see stuff. Otherwise, how could you even progress in the"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":1795.815,"endTime":1800.177,"body":"project? project, right? You need something visual to work with and to debate."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":1800.997,"endTime":1804.519,"body":"At the same time, you feel like it's such a big system. And if we just keep"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":1804.519,"endTime":1808.66,"body":"making graphics, you know, it's never be a proper system system, right?"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":1808.66,"endTime":1813.742,"body":"And so when when do you introduce these rules? Or do you redo all the example"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":1813.742,"endTime":1817.364,"body":"charts you did before if some design decision changes?"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":1817.724,"endTime":1823.606,"body":"Like, you know, how do you keep it dynamic also? And one thing I found there"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":1823.606,"endTime":1827.348,"body":"is this design tokens approach that I'm super excited about."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":1827.348,"endTime":1831.23,"body":"It's like, so if you're a bit technical inclined or you like coding anyways,"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":1831.23,"endTime":1836.392,"body":"then I think that's worth looking into because it's a really neat way to sort"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":1836.392,"endTime":1839.613,"body":"of store all the basic design decisions in the standardized format."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":1839.613,"endTime":1844.977,"body":"And then ideally if the brand color changes or if the background color changes,"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":1844.977,"endTime":1847.662,"body":"it all trickles through your implementations."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":1850.036,"endTime":1852.776,"body":"There's also the risk that you could then keep perfecting that system."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":1857.138,"endTime":1863.68,"body":"And it becomes a little hobby to clean the token structure and rethink about the hierarchies then."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":1864.761,"endTime":1868.362,"body":"But I think that helped me a lot to think about, okay, what are the building blocks?"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":1870.102,"endTime":1874.064,"body":"We need a background color. We also need a sort of a shaded background color."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":1874.064,"endTime":1876.704,"body":"We need two text colors or maybe three, right?"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":1879.086,"endTime":1880.706,"body":"Them by how they look, but what"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":1880.706,"endTime":1884.287,"body":"they do. Oh, it's the high contrast or the low contrast version of it."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":1884.287,"endTime":1889.909,"body":"And that helped me a lot to think about it in a structured way on the basic"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":1889.909,"endTime":1893.09,"body":"LEGO building block level and stay flexible in terms of, oh,"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":1893.09,"endTime":1895.951,"body":"I think we should change the text color on all charts."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":1895.951,"endTime":1899.712,"body":"That was much easier because we had that system in place. So yeah."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1902.413,"endTime":1907.455,"body":"That's the benefits of design systems. Because I think instead of the GAN line"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1907.455,"endTime":1913.057,"body":"constrained versus as a design system and tokens and components and patterns"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1913.057,"endTime":1914.537,"body":"help you be more flexible."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1914.537,"endTime":1918.318,"body":"In my opinion, it's like, it's more, we're giving you the blocks and then you can make it yourself."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1918.859,"endTime":1922.279,"body":"And here are just a couple of rules about big mistakes you could make."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1923.48,"endTime":1926.12,"body":"And you know, at Pentagram we do a lot of just the rules only."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1926.561,"endTime":1930.782,"body":"And I think that can be constraining and not flexible for an organization."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":1932.321,"endTime":1939.604,"body":"Yeah, on the flip side, I think it allows that creative work to have greater impact."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":1942.705,"endTime":1947.227,"body":"So if you have to design every chart by hand, you spend a lot of time designing"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":1947.227,"endTime":1949.667,"body":"the same thing again and again and again and again."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":1950.248,"endTime":1954.329,"body":"But if you have a system and you're designing the system and playing with the"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":1954.329,"endTime":1960.151,"body":"tokens, the output scales up really quickly. I mean, it's nearly infinite,"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":1960.151,"endTime":1962.972,"body":"You have so many different outputs that can be automated."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":1964.273,"endTime":1966.253,"body":"And so, yeah, it's that flip."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":1968.414,"endTime":1974.076,"body":"The other side of it, right, is that the creativity that is left to do is more"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":1974.076,"endTime":1975.517,"body":"impactful and less menial."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1977.008,"endTime":1980.719,"body":"Yeah, I love that. Because I think sometimes what you hear is,"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1980.719,"endTime":1984.58,"body":"well, we don't need one because we want to do creative things, but it's the opposite."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1984.58,"endTime":1987.061,"body":"If you remove the small choices of picking the right font sizes,"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1987.061,"endTime":1991.723,"body":"font sizes, picking the right font away, then you can spend more time actually"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1991.723,"endTime":1995.665,"body":"looking for creative solution, but you have some blocks that are predefined"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1995.665,"endTime":1998.146,"body":"that makes it way faster. And repeatable, obviously."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":1998.567,"endTime":2002.909,"body":"So I tend to agree, I think it actually opens up more flexibility, if anything."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":2002.909,"endTime":2009.472,"body":"Yeah. But it's an ongoing thing. And I think another big challenge is,"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":2009.472,"endTime":2012.393,"body":"I think the initial version is easy to build, right?"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":2015.195,"endTime":2018.757,"body":"Like how do you make it grow? How does it evolve over time?"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":2019.297,"endTime":2024.72,"body":"And how do you not have it end up like the German administration that has lots"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":2024.72,"endTime":2031.426,"body":"of really good rules that in isolation make a lot of sense, but it's a bit too many of them overall."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":2032.709,"endTime":2034.781,"body":"And so how do you manage?"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":2037.382,"endTime":2042.123,"body":"Complexity when things grow, right? Or even out of your hands at some point."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":2042.123,"endTime":2044.204,"body":"Like, what's the life cycle of the whole thing?"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":2045.005,"endTime":2048.946,"body":"Well, my experience is the opposite. I think the first step is the hardest. Interesting."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":2049.536,"endTime":2054.008,"body":"The initial thing is so hard. Maybe it's just my nature that I want it to be"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":2054.008,"endTime":2056.249,"body":"whole or complete in some way."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":2056.249,"endTime":2060.51,"body":"And just right from the beginning. Exactly. I have that kind of perfectionist"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":2060.51,"endTime":2063.191,"body":"mentality. I don't want to put something out out there until it's ready and"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":2063.191,"endTime":2064.872,"body":"I really am confident in it."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":2065.592,"endTime":2068.853,"body":"But my, and so my experience is that part is the difficult part,"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":2068.853,"endTime":2073.305,"body":"but once you do have something out there, then delivering incremental value"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":2073.305,"endTime":2076.856,"body":"is a lot easier because you have a good feedback loop, right?"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":2076.856,"endTime":2082.318,"body":"You know what people are using, you know what they like, you're hearing feedback."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":2082.318,"endTime":2087.1,"body":"I mean, designers have feedback, right? They'll tell you what is and isn't working"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":2087.1,"endTime":2090.681,"body":"for them and you can spend time with them to get into the why."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":2090.741,"endTime":2095.943,"body":"And then for me, the rest of the process is more natural. It's a lot more service"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":2095.943,"endTime":2098.544,"body":"oriented where you're like, oh, okay, well, this isn't working,"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":2098.544,"endTime":2103.526,"body":"so let's focus on fixing it, or this doesn't exist yet, so let's create that thing."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":2105.047,"endTime":2109.288,"body":"And it's really just how many people need that. And that can be a little more"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":2109.288,"endTime":2113.31,"body":"harder to determine, but you're just trying to measure impact."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":2114.911,"endTime":2119.252,"body":"Well, like, Gabby and I, we are brought in as external consultants, your in-house."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":2121.193,"endTime":2128.195,"body":"What do you think? What can the roles of external consultants be versus in-house folks?"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":2128.755,"endTime":2133.217,"body":"I've also met people who said, design system? No, we don't work with external"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":2133.217,"endTime":2134.637,"body":"people on our design system."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":2134.637,"endTime":2138.869,"body":"That doesn't make sense, right? Because they've begun in three months,"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":2138.869,"endTime":2144.421,"body":"then it takes care of the actual work that happens afterwards."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":2146.062,"endTime":2152.147,"body":"Or is there something we can do? I don't know. What's going to take on that?"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":2152.147,"endTime":2157.674,"body":"Well, at Adobe, we treat Spectrum like a product, like any other product at Adobe."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":2157.674,"endTime":2162.839,"body":"It's a thing that we build. The differences, our user base is almost entirely"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":2162.839,"endTime":2168.144,"body":"internal. We do have some external people, vendors and partners and so on,"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":2168.144,"endTime":2169.185,"body":"and so on that use Vectrum."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":2170.139,"endTime":2176.281,"body":"The primary audience is internal. And so I don't know how you would have a similar model with an agency."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":2177.421,"endTime":2181.843,"body":"Not to say that agencies don't play a role in creating some of the initial work"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":2181.843,"endTime":2187.605,"body":"or coming in and helping you audit it or bring new life to it, bring new ideas."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":2190.466,"endTime":2194.037,"body":"Sometimes things can get a little stale internally because you're just kind"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":2194.037,"endTime":2198.089,"body":"of recycling the same set of ideas among the same set of people,"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":2198.089,"endTime":2200.13,"body":"so fresh perspective can be really useful."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":2201.73,"endTime":2204.571,"body":"I also think it depends on the nature of your organization, how big it is,"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":2204.571,"endTime":2209.953,"body":"right? If you are a relatively small startup, you can't spare even a single"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":2209.953,"endTime":2214.635,"body":"person to run a design system. That would be ludicrous to consider."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":2215.035,"endTime":2219.257,"body":"And so having someone build something for you that you can just use and maybe"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":2219.257,"endTime":2223.278,"body":"touch up every year or so might be a better route to go."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":2224.479,"endTime":2226.76,"body":"There's as many solutions as there are problems."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":2226.76,"endTime":2230.861,"body":"Yeah, that's true. Gabby, any thoughts on that?"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":2230.861,"endTime":2235.703,"body":"No, you raise a good point. Because I found it frustrating as a designer who"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":2235.703,"endTime":2240.544,"body":"makes guidelines as a contractor, to just, we dropped it to a client and we're out of here."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":2241.425,"endTime":2244.886,"body":"Like, no feedback matters. There's a scope that's defined, there's a budget"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":2244.886,"endTime":2248.427,"body":"that's defined. So if the scope was that we don't get feedback on it,"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":2248.427,"endTime":2250.908,"body":"we don't get feedback on it. Even though it works or it doesn't work,"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":2250.908,"endTime":2252.969,"body":"it doesn't matter almost because we get paid."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":2254.009,"endTime":2255.93,"body":"Unfortunately, that's how the business works."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":2258.731,"endTime":2262.912,"body":"I hear you, Alan, and I agree. I think there's a space for it where a small"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":2262.912,"endTime":2266.313,"body":"organization cannot afford, they don't have the time and the resources to set"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":2266.313,"endTime":2268.954,"body":"it up, like the initial big phase of doing that work."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":2269.814,"endTime":2274.556,"body":"But I do think that the development and the incremental changes needs to be"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":2274.556,"endTime":2277.537,"body":"done internally, otherwise you're going to end up paying an external agency"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":2277.537,"endTime":2281.618,"body":"for everything and they are not as familiar to your organization needs."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":2282.042,"endTime":2283.304,"body":"Than the organization itself."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":2285.928,"endTime":2289.089,"body":"As an extraordinary don't say that we have a value that we bring."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":2289.089,"endTime":2291.65,"body":"Maybe it's at the initial phase, maybe it's at a big review phase,"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":2291.65,"endTime":2295.451,"body":"maybe it's just to, you know, nobody has time. So, you know,"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":2295.451,"endTime":2298.212,"body":"you give them, you let them do kind of the work and then you take over."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":2298.952,"endTime":2303.174,"body":"But yeah, we cannot if you're going to maintain it, it has to be done internally."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":2303.174,"endTime":2307.735,"body":"I think, you know, oh, sometimes we can come at consulting to solve issues."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":2307.735,"endTime":2313.077,"body":"But I really think that, you know, our values are definitely limited here. We can't do it all."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":2313.298,"endTime":2317.419,"body":"Well, and I think that's part of the value of a design system,"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":2317.419,"endTime":2319.359,"body":"is it needs to be a living thing."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":2320.12,"endTime":2325.822,"body":"Because if it's static, it just doesn't continue to solve problems."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":2326.142,"endTime":2330.263,"body":"You need it to evolve to solve the different problems that you encounter."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":2330.263,"endTime":2335.625,"body":"So, yeah. Yeah, and I've been thinking a lot about that too."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":2335.625,"endTime":2342.027,"body":"How do we actually make sure people use the things that we design and keep using?"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":2342.027,"endTime":2345.129,"body":"And they say like software is either maintained or abandoned."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":2345.129,"endTime":2348.23,"body":"And I feel like the same might happen with design systems."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":2348.23,"endTime":2352.091,"body":"If you don't like have somebody internally always pushing for this,"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":2352.091,"endTime":2355.773,"body":"the system we use, it's cool. This is how you use it. Right."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":2355.773,"endTime":2360.135,"body":"And so you need also these these advocates and people who do onboarding with"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":2360.135,"endTime":2362.155,"body":"new folks to keep it going and so on."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":2362.616,"endTime":2367.657,"body":"And yeah, and somehow you need to think about that whole social process around it as well."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":2367.657,"endTime":2372.539,"body":"Right. Yeah, the other thing I was thinking about, maybe it's good also not"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":2372.539,"endTime":2378.682,"body":"to have so much rules, but more, maybe supply more templates or tools or like"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":2378.682,"endTime":2382.343,"body":"really easy one-click solutions, you know, to do something."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":2382.343,"endTime":2386.905,"body":"So think about what's the threshold to even using your design system."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":2386.905,"endTime":2392.187,"body":"Like if it seems to be a big burden or like a big like, oh, I need to read this"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":2392.187,"endTime":2397.691,"body":"whole book before I can make a single tried, you know, then that immediately might be off putting."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":2397.691,"endTime":2401.095,"body":"And if you're then not there to enforce it, it's like, yeah,"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":2401.095,"endTime":2404.378,"body":"we don't care so much about this big rule book."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":2406.881,"endTime":2410.083,"body":"So yeah, but then again, you need to know really well what people want to make"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":2410.083,"endTime":2412.526,"body":"with it. And maybe that's often not that clear."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":2413.547,"endTime":2414.948,"body":"It's interesting to think that..."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":2415.946,"endTime":2419.307,"body":"External contractors like me, for instance, are designer and use guidelines."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":2419.727,"endTime":2422.928,"body":"So we are often like the consumer of the product itself."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":2423.349,"endTime":2428.33,"body":"And so I guess the way I see it, I've changed quite a bit of the way Starguide"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":2428.33,"endTime":2432.832,"body":"in agency work is often, Starguide only is a big PDF of 60 pages."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":2432.832,"endTime":2438.114,"body":"You know, PDF, all school, sometimes made for print. So vertical, right?"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":2438.114,"endTime":2439.134,"body":"Also books, real books."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":2441.435,"endTime":2444.376,"body":"So it's interesting how you can just come in and be like, I know what I would"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":2444.376,"endTime":2447.497,"body":"like. So to your point, I think sometimes we don't have access,"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":2447.497,"endTime":2450.358,"body":"at least I didn't have access to the designer that would be using the book,"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":2450.358,"endTime":2452.219,"body":"but I was like, here's what I wish I had."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":2453.3,"endTime":2457.501,"body":"So, you know, text style, paragraph style made in advance in Illustrator."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":2458.501,"endTime":2460.222,"body":"Paragraph style made in advance in Figma."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":2460.222,"endTime":2461.682,"body":"Template documents, right?"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":2461.682,"endTime":2464.123,"body":"Just that kind of thing. I don't want to have the copy paste,"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":2464.123,"endTime":2465.644,"body":"the goddamn hex code anymore."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":2467.305,"endTime":2470.446,"body":"Just things like that. So I think it's interesting how, you know,"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":2470.446,"endTime":2474.068,"body":"But sometimes we forget also, we do things a certain way."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":2474.488,"endTime":2479.351,"body":"So it's interesting how sometimes having somebody new coming in can help with"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":2479.351,"endTime":2482.873,"body":"that or can look at it being like, I'm not sure this is working for me."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":2482.873,"endTime":2485.914,"body":"Because I also find places where they're like, well, we do use the brand guidelines."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":2485.914,"endTime":2487.095,"body":"We don't really know what we need."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":2490.177,"endTime":2494.699,"body":"So there's a balance in everything of asking the audience, having your own input"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":2494.699,"endTime":2498.201,"body":"and being flexible enough to change how we do things every time."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":2498.201,"endTime":2500.322,"body":"For a new client, for instance, I change it every time."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":2500.863,"endTime":2504.945,"body":"Everything, including the basic charts or the decision charts,"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":2504.945,"endTime":2509.406,"body":"and decided what chart to use when, It's different for every client, depending on the topic."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":2510.824,"endTime":2515.426,"body":"So it's definitely interesting how the audience can, can like force us to adapt"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":2515.426,"endTime":2520.367,"body":"every time, even for just the initial brief. And then I can imagine internally how that changes."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":2520.367,"endTime":2520.787,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":2521.928,"endTime":2528.07,"body":"I mean, I have a very similar experience. The very first foray I had into this"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":2528.07,"endTime":2532.551,"body":"was like a 60 page PDF, exactly as you described."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":2533.212,"endTime":2537.473,"body":"And we printed it out and it actually, everyone loved it. Cause they had,"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":2537.473,"endTime":2539.233,"body":"we didn't have anything like that before."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":2539.674,"endTime":2543.195,"body":"And so people like engineers and designers had it at their desk and they'd have"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":2543.195,"endTime":2548.457,"body":"it flipped open to pages, but they would be typing in those X codes and rebuilding"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":2548.457,"endTime":2549.407,"body":"the buttons themselves."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":2550.558,"endTime":2554.199,"body":"And so it was only a week or two before an engineer was like,"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":2554.199,"endTime":2558.12,"body":"can we just get this in Git so that I don't have to rebuild all this stuff?"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":2558.12,"endTime":2563.222,"body":"And we had designers that are like, where's the, this is how old I am as a designer,"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":2563.222,"endTime":2567.043,"body":"where's the Illustrator template for this or the Photoshop template for this?"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":2567.043,"endTime":2569.663,"body":"Or the palettes you can download and all that stuff."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":2570.864,"endTime":2572.985,"body":"Yeah, I just want an AAC file with my call of help."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":2572.985,"endTime":2578.947,"body":"Thank you. Exactly. And so we started to create those. And so it slowly evolved"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":2578.947,"endTime":2585.249,"body":"from a PDF that people printed and kept on their desk to a website with downloadable resources."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":2585.95,"endTime":2589.411,"body":"And I think it's really important to meet people where they are."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":2590.621,"endTime":2595.233,"body":"There are times when you need to push people into new and different tools to"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":2595.233,"endTime":2599.395,"body":"better do their job. But for the most part, they have the tools to do their"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":2599.395,"endTime":2601.575,"body":"job and they just need you to provide the resources."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":2601.995,"endTime":2605.136,"body":"And so if your users are in PowerPoint."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":2605.136,"endTime":2606.637,"body":"Make it easier."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":2606.637,"endTime":2609.758,"body":"Exactly, if they're in PowerPoint and that's what they're using to build their"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":2609.758,"endTime":2613.74,"body":"charts or Excel, you've got to provide those Excel and PowerPoint templates."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":2614.54,"endTime":2618.441,"body":"It pains me sometimes to say that, but it's true. And likewise,"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":2618.441,"endTime":2623.503,"body":"if they're in R or Tableau, use the tools that they use, provide the resources"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":2623.503,"endTime":2629.426,"body":"in that tool's format that form tools language and you'll be more successful by far."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":2631.206,"endTime":2636.347,"body":"Yeah, I think that's interesting. And I think that also, if you take that super serious means,"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":2636.347,"endTime":2639.869,"body":"really, you can't be too picky about all this, the design details,"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":2639.869,"endTime":2645.751,"body":"really, like, what the spacing is exactly, or, you know, what type of tricky"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":2645.751,"endTime":2650.473,"body":"access configuration you have come up with, but really be more really clear"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":2650.473,"endTime":2652.533,"body":"about these are our underlying principles."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":2652.934,"endTime":2656.375,"body":"And this is what, like, qualities all all of our charts should have in terms"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":2656.375,"endTime":2663.958,"body":"of accessibility or voice or whatever, but then being really flexible about how that happens."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":2663.958,"endTime":2666.779,"body":"And maybe there as a designer, we need to be a bit more like,"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":2666.779,"endTime":2673.742,"body":"the details don't matter that much, it's fine as long as the general direction is good."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":2674.682,"endTime":2679.684,"body":"Or am I being too generous here? No, there's a lot of truth to that."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":2679.684,"endTime":2684.146,"body":"But I feel like one of my roles as a designer is to never give up on the ideal, right?"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":2685.286,"endTime":2691.308,"body":"So I always- It's facing matters. It does. That rounded corner makes a difference,"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":2691.308,"endTime":2698.171,"body":"right? It's only a one pixel axi, but just round that corner and it just makes it sing, right?"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":2699.411,"endTime":2703.152,"body":"And you can get that if they're working in one tool, but in another tool,"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":2703.152,"endTime":2704.613,"body":"like it just doesn't support that."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":2704.613,"endTime":2710.935,"body":"So there's a reality to what you're saying, but I do think we need to advocate"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":2710.935,"endTime":2715.256,"body":"for the ideal and then compromise as needed."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":2715.256,"endTime":2721.299,"body":"Yeah, yeah. You can have one gold standard implementation also,"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":2721.299,"endTime":2723.919,"body":"where you say this is how it really should look like."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":2724.34,"endTime":2727.181,"body":"That's how it's meant, but then maybe flexible on."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":2728.561,"endTime":2732.982,"body":"In a different context, it's fine if it doesn't hit all the design details."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":2732.982,"endTime":2739.825,"body":"I also found it, it's often that, to me, the pixel close, those precise details"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":2739.825,"endTime":2744.777,"body":"helpful sometimes for specifically non-designers or people who are like not,"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":2746.049,"endTime":2750.891,"body":"I think this, because we can't teach them design, we have to give them really"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":2750.891,"endTime":2757.873,"body":"precise rules so that they don't have the understanding of what the right spacing in, text hierarchy."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":2758.213,"endTime":2761.635,"body":"And so we see it regularly when researchers make PowerPoint,"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":2761.635,"endTime":2763.695,"body":"right? No offense to researchers out here."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":2764.736,"endTime":2768.957,"body":"We respect you, we used to be there, we know how it feels. But I think sometimes"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":2768.957,"endTime":2772.018,"body":"they just don't have the sense, they don't have time to even learn,"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":2772.018,"endTime":2773.559,"body":"and we don't wanna make them designers."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":2773.879,"endTime":2777.34,"body":"So it's more, those rules can also be set up sometimes just to actually help"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":2777.34,"endTime":2780.661,"body":"them without having to like give them free workshop on how to do database."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":2780.661,"endTime":2784.956,"body":"It's just like, here is it easy. You just have to follow this exact guidelines,"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":2784.956,"endTime":2788.984,"body":"this exact pixel, this exact roundling corner in your software,"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":2788.984,"endTime":2793.386,"body":"we give it to you so that you don't have to think about it really and to make your job faster."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":2794.946,"endTime":2797.387,"body":"Otherwise, interpretation is nice, especially as designers, we know how to do"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":2797.387,"endTime":2802.169,"body":"things. So we feel more comfortable taking some freedom into interpretation of the guidelines."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":2802.549,"endTime":2807.391,"body":"But I think for other users, it might be really important to just help with"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":2807.391,"endTime":2810.412,"body":"that and just give really precise guidelines that just makes their work easier."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":2810.412,"endTime":2814.934,"body":"But then I'm thinking if the exact one-to-one look really matters,"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":2814.934,"endTime":2818.595,"body":"then maybe it's actually better to supply a software that creates the thing"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":2818.595,"endTime":2825.818,"body":"as it should look, or a template, because otherwise you end up with really long, super detailed specs."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":2825.818,"endTime":2828.299,"body":"I think so, but it's hard to sell to clients sometimes."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":2830.64,"endTime":2835.262,"body":"At the industry level, I think that's what I run into is often we get scoped"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":2835.262,"endTime":2837.303,"body":"for just the guidelines and no templates."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":2837.303,"endTime":2839.924,"body":"And they may come back six months later and ask for the templates."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":2839.924,"endTime":2843.505,"body":"That happens regularly. But you wish you could sell it and be like,"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":2843.505,"endTime":2846.326,"body":"you're going to need this. Believe me, you're going to need this."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":2846.827,"endTime":2850.688,"body":"And the guidelines. Yeah, this is where this initial scoping comes in,"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":2850.688,"endTime":2853.97,"body":"in terms of, okay, what do you hope to achieve? Who is this for?"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":2854.512,"endTime":2857.556,"body":"What are the actual things we should supply because of that, right?"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":2858.85,"endTime":2861.951,"body":"Yeah, interesting. And at the same time, the whole tooling landscape is shifting"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":2861.951,"endTime":2864.392,"body":"too, right? It's like, what do you do your charts in?"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":2865.373,"endTime":2872.095,"body":"There's a new answer to that every two years. And ideally, our stuff should"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":2872.095,"endTime":2875.817,"body":"survive a few of these iterations as well in terms of tooling."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":2875.817,"endTime":2879.138,"body":"And so there are a lot of challenges there."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":2881.18,"endTime":2884.04,"body":"I think we need to sort of wrap things up semi-soon."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":2885.581,"endTime":2889.803,"body":"I have two more questions. So one is about are there any caveats,"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":2889.803,"endTime":2894.785,"body":"traps, failures, things you wish you would have known before somebody sent you"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":2894.785,"endTime":2902.969,"body":"on that impossible journey that you could share with our audience who might be new to the field,"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":2902.969,"endTime":2907.791,"body":"like something valuable to avoid or just stuff that happened."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":2909.171,"endTime":2912.772,"body":"Oh boy, I would say be humble and listen."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":2914.213,"endTime":2918.815,"body":"I remember early on I had just discovered histograms and I'm like,"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":2918.815,"endTime":2923.697,"body":"oh histograms, okay. And I thought I understood what a histogram was."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":2924.277,"endTime":2931.56,"body":"And I was writing guidelines and explaining to people and six months later I"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":2931.56,"endTime":2934.981,"body":"realized I was wrong about some fundamental things."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":2936.882,"endTime":2942.744,"body":"And it was difficult to eat that crow and fix the wrongs that I had done."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":2943.484,"endTime":2947.746,"body":"Because people trusted me, right? I taught them things and I thought I was right"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":2947.746,"endTime":2952.468,"body":"and they thought I was right. And I wish I had just been taking a little more"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":2952.468,"endTime":2956.229,"body":"time to educate myself before I had put forth these things."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":2957.792,"endTime":2963.006,"body":"So early feedback and really get people to comment on everything."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":2963.006,"endTime":2963.606,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":2966.106,"endTime":2970.388,"body":"Yeah, I like that you said people trust me, because to my point,"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":2970.388,"endTime":2976.61,"body":"I think, especially at Contractor, we get a lot of trust, and they hire us as experts, right?"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":2976.61,"endTime":2981.372,"body":"So we tend to be trusted, and you know, whatever we say, it's going to be the"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":2981.372,"endTime":2983.192,"body":"Bible. And I found it problematic."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":2983.733,"endTime":2989.695,"body":"Not problematic, but I found that it's a lot of responsibility that we forget, I think."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":2990.535,"endTime":2994.877,"body":"And I wrote about this recently, but I think especially when we make guidelines"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":2994.877,"endTime":2998.958,"body":"that are going to be used potentially by hundreds of people or templates,"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":2998.958,"endTime":3001.459,"body":"it's, we have such a responsibility to do them properly."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":3001.819,"endTime":3005.221,"body":"So not just for the users so that they're usable, easy to understand,"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":3005.221,"endTime":3009.943,"body":"et cetera, et cetera. But I think we need to meet the big caveat when I got"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":3009.943,"endTime":3013.504,"body":"lines is we don't approach like ethics in database and guidelines."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":3013.504,"endTime":3015.445,"body":"We're like, here's the job. This is how you make it."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":3015.865,"endTime":3020.006,"body":"Especially when you like me and you work with a lot of data that like social data. So bad people."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":3020.707,"endTime":3024.728,"body":"Of course, I think it's getting more common, accessibility, some kind of rules."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":3025.288,"endTime":3028.289,"body":"It's becoming more common, but I still see a lot of it as just like,"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":3028.289,"endTime":3030.21,"body":"here's the colors, here's the thing, do whatever you want."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":3030.21,"endTime":3033.881,"body":"And I just, I want to start this conversation with,"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":3033.881,"endTime":3039.813,"body":"you know, maybe we shouldn't, the colors matter, but maybe we should also question"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":3039.813,"endTime":3046.135,"body":"like, should guidelines also offer more guidance on when do you actually need to do database?"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":3046.135,"endTime":3050.824,"body":"Which database should you be doing? Like should you actually emphasize differences"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":3050.824,"endTime":3053.498,"body":"between social groups, ethnicity for instance?"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":3053.498,"endTime":3058.96,"body":"Like we have research nowadays that shows that maybe it's a problem to raise awareness this way."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":3058.96,"endTime":3062.681,"body":"And I'm wondering, and I know it's a little further than what designers are,"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":3062.681,"endTime":3067.023,"body":"I think we get caught into the detail of design, but at least designers like"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":3067.023,"endTime":3069.443,"body":"me who work on guidelines for those big organizations that,"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":3069.443,"endTime":3073.265,"body":"you know, approaches like sensitive topics, I'm just wondering if there's a"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":3073.265,"endTime":3079.893,"body":"place for us to be more responsible and think twice about the work we do and"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":3079.893,"endTime":3081.757,"body":"give guidance on maybe even terminology."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":3082.509,"endTime":3087.08,"body":"Like, how do we use, you know, ethnicities? Yeah, texts. Like,"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":3087.08,"endTime":3092.622,"body":"you know, how are we, can we promote transparency in how data is sourced within"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":3092.622,"endTime":3095.323,"body":"the guidelines? Like, I think there's so much more we can do with it that's"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":3095.323,"endTime":3096.803,"body":"not just design related."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":3098.084,"endTime":3102.625,"body":"So I guess that's my big statement. I just want designers to be a little more,"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":3102.625,"endTime":3105.026,"body":"but to also space is happening."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":3105.026,"endTime":3108.047,"body":"Think about more than decoration of numbers, right?"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":3108.047,"endTime":3112.388,"body":"Yeah. And also have that humility, you know. I think he makes a great point."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":3112.388,"endTime":3116.35,"body":"We are a little bit approaching a top-down approach, like designers say something,"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":3116.35,"endTime":3118.13,"body":"and we are problem solvers."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":3118.771,"endTime":3122.372,"body":"Yeah, and also the hope is with this design system, it's the Bible."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":3122.372,"endTime":3128.054,"body":"It's once and for all, this is how you do it. And we all know this is not how it works."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":3129.354,"endTime":3133.716,"body":"You can be brilliant at your job and do it for 30 years, and still every project"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":3133.716,"endTime":3136.477,"body":"is new, and there's always uncertainties and doubt."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":3136.777,"endTime":3140.258,"body":"And you could always do it this way or that way, and in the end you just make"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":3140.258,"endTime":3145.12,"body":"an informed judgment call. but there's no absolute truth in design, right? And so, yeah."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":3147.201,"endTime":3151.302,"body":"I love that point because I think there's so many decisions that lead up to"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":3151.302,"endTime":3152.762,"body":"the final product of a visualization."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":3153.863,"endTime":3160.085,"body":"And a visualization doesn't often acknowledge those things, right?"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":3160.706,"endTime":3165.797,"body":"I think that's one of the most problematic pieces of data visualization is because"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":3165.797,"endTime":3171.049,"body":"it's so easy to trust. That's why we see so many problems emerge around dishonest"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":3171.049,"endTime":3172.51,"body":"charts and things of that nature."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":3173.13,"endTime":3179.253,"body":"Even the most well-intentioned individual is obscuring the actual truth to some"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":3179.253,"endTime":3184.274,"body":"extent in an effort to tell a story or to simplify a problem or illustrate a point."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":3185.735,"endTime":3188.896,"body":"So I don't know how to solve that, but, and it goes back to,"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":3188.896,"endTime":3192.918,"body":"I guess, one of my earlier points about the desire to educate people,"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":3192.918,"endTime":3194.378,"body":"not just about styles, but about"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":3194.378,"endTime":3197.599,"body":"data literacy and all the overlaps and intricacies of data visualization."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":3200.182,"endTime":3205.305,"body":"I just, I think that's an important thing. And to your point,"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":3205.305,"endTime":3206.766,"body":"Gabriel, we can't lose sight of that."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":3208.38,"endTime":3212.741,"body":"Yeah, I don't know how to do that in guidelines. It's definitely an education maybe,"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":3212.741,"endTime":3216.413,"body":"but it is about, I think we tend to focus designer,"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":3216.413,"endTime":3220.604,"body":"we're taught for a long time that we are like solution maker,"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":3220.604,"endTime":3224.606,"body":"you know, but we should focus on approaches, on like something that's flexible,"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":3224.606,"endTime":3229.807,"body":"agile, and that gives space to others to give the opinion and take decision,"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":3229.807,"endTime":3232.688,"body":"you know, give them the best tool, including an educative tool,"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":3232.688,"endTime":3236.35,"body":"to make those decisions rather than just get really strict guidance that might"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":3236.35,"endTime":3242.232,"body":"be also found false or harmful in 20 years, because I think we see a lot of that nowadays."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":3243.633,"endTime":3247.174,"body":"Yeah, that's a great point. Maybe it's related to my last provocation that I"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":3247.174,"endTime":3251.295,"body":"want to throw in here, because maybe I'm just getting old, but I find that a"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":3251.295,"endTime":3254.816,"body":"lot of design is really boring these days. Like web design is super boring."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":3254.816,"endTime":3257.417,"body":"Everything looks the same. There's like big round buttons."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":3258.978,"endTime":3263.199,"body":"You know, I feel like there's like five templates and they are just applied all over the whole web."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":3264.72,"endTime":3268.602,"body":"And I think in a way it's cool because everything's super easy to use now."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":3268.602,"endTime":3273.003,"body":"No surprises. It's like, cool, I know my way around."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":3274.004,"endTime":3278.506,"body":"On the other hand, I feel like if we streamline everything and everything gets"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":3278.506,"endTime":3285.368,"body":"formalized and optimized and templatized and standardized, where's the fun in that?"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":3288.91,"endTime":3294.619,"body":"No, don't we abstract away all the interesting, a bit uncomfortable,"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":3294.619,"endTime":3299.694,"body":"weird, edgy things? If everything becomes formalized and standardized?"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":3300.134,"endTime":3303.116,"body":"And are we contributing to that with our design system work?"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":3303.116,"endTime":3305.236,"body":"That's something I've been thinking about."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":3305.236,"endTime":3310.128,"body":"I have a thought on that. So it's an interesting question because you said,"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":3310.128,"endTime":3315.382,"body":"I know my way around, which I think most people do, and the idea of we've standardized"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":3315.382,"endTime":3317.986,"body":"web design, for instance, is pretty standardized."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":3317.986,"endTime":3320.969,"body":"I think there's a question of like, it's standard that's for who?"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":3322.75,"endTime":3327.991,"body":"Because we're in this conversation, right? We're standards, you're centric and then Americans."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":3328.391,"endTime":3333.193,"body":"And I think we need to ask this question of like, when we do that,"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":3333.193,"endTime":3338.195,"body":"when we automatize things, when we do this thing of standardizing,"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":3338.195,"endTime":3340.596,"body":"do we take into account enough people?"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":3342.517,"endTime":3345.698,"body":"I think we all have this thing of like, this is how design is done."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":3346.798,"endTime":3349.939,"body":"Modernism, it needs to be clean and minimal and sensitive."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":3350.439,"endTime":3351.2,"body":"Like, why?"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":3351.2,"endTime":3355.581,"body":"You know, when you look at design from East Asia, like, it might look very different."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":3355.581,"endTime":3358.462,"body":"And to the eyes of American designers like me, I mean, like,"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":3358.462,"endTime":3361.563,"body":"it's messy. It doesn't respect text hierarchy. It's not albedica."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":3362.404,"endTime":3365.245,"body":"Well, no, albedica doesn't write like in the story, guys."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":3366.405,"endTime":3370.847,"body":"So it's interesting how I wonder, I'm not against it. I actually found it like, to me, automating."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":3371.427,"endTime":3376.149,"body":"But you question if it's actually true or if it's just a slice of reality or..."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":3376.149,"endTime":3381.351,"body":"Is it for the right thing? When is it used? How is it used? For who is it used?"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":3381.351,"endTime":3385.272,"body":"Is I think those questions that, you know, are like, I find challenging."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":3385.272,"endTime":3389.534,"body":"Like, I want to automate my workflow. I want to, I think it's so practical to"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":3389.534,"endTime":3390.994,"body":"have those technology, Figma components."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":3392.135,"endTime":3397.036,"body":"Like, it's so great. I just wonder if we automate, we tend to repeat a certain"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":3397.036,"endTime":3401.078,"body":"point of view in design that has been put by a certain type of population."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":3401.498,"endTime":3405.339,"body":"And maybe it doesn't apply to everyone, it's not fit for every audience."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":3405.339,"endTime":3410.961,"body":"Yeah, I agree with that. I think that I like that."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":3412.342,"endTime":3417.864,"body":"I think my take on it is that sometimes it's an enabler. We've talked about"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":3417.864,"endTime":3418.904,"body":"that a little bit already."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":3420.145,"endTime":3425.206,"body":"By systemizing design, it enables you to design a lot of things at once."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":3425.987,"endTime":3429.648,"body":"And that's really cool. And I think that's really powerful."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":3431.389,"endTime":3435.99,"body":"And typically, the thing that kind of design you're enabling is,"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":3435.99,"endTime":3439.891,"body":"to your point, more it's pretty expected and not terribly exciting."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":3441.352,"endTime":3446.734,"body":"But it works and it's usable. But that's not to say you couldn't build a system"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":3446.734,"endTime":3450.575,"body":"that is just wild and crazy and super creative."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":3452.816,"endTime":3458.858,"body":"So I think I'm really excited for the next 10 years because I think not only"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":3458.858,"endTime":3463.82,"body":"are the tools that we to do this work going to continue to evolve and change,"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":3463.82,"endTime":3468.762,"body":"and there's going to be new ones and things, I think the work that comes out"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":3468.762,"endTime":3471.223,"body":"of those tools is going to be better too."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":3471.223,"endTime":3477.005,"body":"I think one of the challenges to being creative isn't necessarily the systemization,"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":3477.005,"endTime":3478.565,"body":"it's the feedback loop, right?"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":3479.105,"endTime":3483.847,"body":"Right now, like I author my system over here, and then I see the results over"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":3483.847,"endTime":3489.109,"body":"here, and it's very difficult to kind of connect all those dots."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":3489.109,"endTime":3494.102,"body":"And I think software is going to get better and better providing creative feedback"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":3494.102,"endTime":3497.411,"body":"loops for all types of design, not just."},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":3498.065,"endTime":3501.686,"body":"The kind of traditional print and web design that we've done up until now,"},{"speaker":"Alan Wilson","startTime":3501.686,"endTime":3503.477,"body":"but the more system level design."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":3503.477,"endTime":3508.649,"body":"If you think about AI tools, they can generate hundreds of variations of something,"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":3508.649,"endTime":3510.97,"body":"and then you pick and curate and combine."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":3511.83,"endTime":3514.791,"body":"That's a whole new thing. Exactly."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":3514.791,"endTime":3520.003,"body":"I think the idea of curating, I'm obsessed with AI, I think it's going to change"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":3520.003,"endTime":3522.534,"body":"how we approach things. I think it's a tool."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":3522.874,"endTime":3526.835,"body":"It's just a tool. So we need to use it as a tool and it's not a finality."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":3526.835,"endTime":3529.656,"body":"It's not just you run it and then you just dump it and that's done."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":3529.656,"endTime":3534.338,"body":"And if we involve human beings in it and we still have a customization of it,"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":3534.338,"endTime":3538.84,"body":"you know, and we we curate the result, then then that's the it seems like the"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":3538.84,"endTime":3539.88,"body":"right approach to do that."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":3539.88,"endTime":3544.582,"body":"Yeah. Yeah. And maybe Lego is a good metaphor in a sense that it's super standardized."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":3544.582,"endTime":3549.343,"body":"Like Lego is the most standardized tool you could think of or toy you can think of, right?"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":3549.343,"endTime":3554.025,"body":"Actually, each block is super boring, but you can build anything out of it."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":3554.025,"endTime":3558.507,"body":"It's like endless fun, right? And so maybe, yeah, thinking about more like,"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":3558.507,"endTime":3559.987,"body":"oh, it's building blocks."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":3559.987,"endTime":3563.548,"body":"It's something you can play with and build stuff out of, you know,"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":3563.548,"endTime":3569.861,"body":"is a better thought than it's a book of laws. You have to abide to it. Yeah."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":3569.861,"endTime":3573.592,"body":"It might also help with gatekeeping in a way. Like, I wonder how much,"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":3573.592,"endTime":3577.814,"body":"when I'm seeing AI mid-journey, like how much of now people who are creative"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":3577.814,"endTime":3582.735,"body":"but never got the chance to be educated, have the time to learn Photoshop can produce art."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":3583.056,"endTime":3586.257,"body":"There's so much, obviously it's a little further away from a discussion,"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":3586.257,"endTime":3589.738,"body":"but automation and all those tools that are going to make our work practical"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":3589.738,"endTime":3592.379,"body":"is also going to allow more people to join the community of designers."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":3592.759,"endTime":3597.081,"body":"Like, designers are going to take a bigger, you know, a bigger umbrella,"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":3597.081,"endTime":3601.122,"body":"maybe we'll have more people with different opinions and different backgrounds."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":3601.623,"endTime":3605.544,"body":"It's a good point. So the more people we bring in, immediately we have more"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":3605.544,"endTime":3610.326,"body":"diversity because there's more viewpoints represented. Yeah."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":3610.326,"endTime":3613.087,"body":"Oh, now I'm thinking about AI plus design systems."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":3613.368,"endTime":3618.05,"body":"That's such a combination, right? If you had Infigma, like you have your little..."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":3618.05,"endTime":3619.111,"body":"I've seen some."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":3619.111,"endTime":3620.452,"body":"Some people are working on some."},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":3620.452,"endTime":3621.733,"body":"It's definitely coming. I'm"},{"speaker":"Gabrielle M\u00e9rite","startTime":3621.733,"endTime":3625.515,"body":"like, I don't have to do the components by hand anymore. It'd be great."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":3625.915,"endTime":3630.438,"body":"That would be kind of nice. Just write a little text. Make all the buttons we need."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":3630.438,"endTime":3637.682,"body":"And here we go. Yeah. You could also teach, as you said, a design idea or a"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":3637.682,"endTime":3643.666,"body":"principle or a certain approach and then just see a hundred variations of that."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":3643.666,"endTime":3645.147,"body":"I think that's exciting."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":3648.278,"endTime":3654.6,"body":"Cool. So I'm glad there's a positive spin to my slight doubt at the end."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":3654.6,"endTime":3659.682,"body":"But I think there is an interesting tension there. And it's what I also want to keep exploring."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":3660.843,"endTime":3666.165,"body":"Like how can we make work that lasts and is really like professional and solves"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":3666.165,"endTime":3668.365,"body":"people's problems, but also still"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":3668.365,"endTime":3673.347,"body":"keep things exciting and inspiring and provoking also sometimes, right?"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":3673.347,"endTime":3678.369,"body":"So I think that's the the eternal design tension that we all have to deal with."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":3678.369,"endTime":3681.87,"body":"Wonderful. I think that was a great conversation."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":3682.471,"endTime":3687.993,"body":"I hope we didn't confuse you all with our design system nerd talk."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":3689.053,"endTime":3693.374,"body":"We'll put a few links in the show notes to the examples we discussed, a few resources."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":3694.015,"endTime":3699.037,"body":"And yeah, maybe we can do a follow-up episode on AI plus design systems now"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":3699.037,"endTime":3700.417,"body":"that we're all excited about."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":3702.538,"endTime":3707.28,"body":"Yeah. In the meantime, thanks for joining me and see you soon."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":3707.28,"endTime":3715.823,"body":"Thank you, Moritz. Bye-bye. Hey, folks. Thanks for listening to Data Stories again."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":3716.543,"endTime":3720.865,"body":"Before you leave a few last notes, this show is crowdfunded and you can support"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":3720.865,"endTime":3726.187,"body":"us on Patreon at patreon.com slash data stories, where we publish monthly previews"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":3726.187,"endTime":3727.927,"body":"of upcoming episodes for our supporters."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":3728.808,"endTime":3734.93,"body":"Or you can also send us a one-time donation via PayPal at paypal.me slash data stories."},{"speaker":"Enrico Bertini","startTime":3735.47,"endTime":3739.812,"body":"Or as a free way to support the show, if you can spend a couple of minutes rating"},{"speaker":"Enrico Bertini","startTime":3739.812,"endTime":3742.273,"body":"us on iTunes that would be very helpful as well."},{"speaker":"Enrico Bertini","startTime":3743.113,"endTime":3746.574,"body":"And here's some information on the many ways you can get news directly from"},{"speaker":"Enrico Bertini","startTime":3746.574,"endTime":3751.956,"body":"us. We are on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram, so follow us there for the latest updates."},{"speaker":"Enrico Bertini","startTime":3752.316,"endTime":3756.298,"body":"We have also a Slack channel where you can chat with us directly."},{"speaker":"Enrico Bertini","startTime":3756.498,"endTime":3762.499,"body":"And to sign up, go to our own page at datastory.es and there you'll find a button"},{"speaker":"Enrico Bertini","startTime":3762.499,"endTime":3763.68,"body":"at the bottom of the page."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":3763.68,"endTime":3767.66,"body":"And there you can also subscribe to our email newsletter if you want to get"},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":3767.66,"endTime":3771.801,"body":"news directly into your inbox and be notified whenever we publish a new episode."},{"speaker":"Enrico Bertini","startTime":3771.801,"endTime":3774.762,"body":"That's right! And we love to get in touch with our listeners,"},{"speaker":"Enrico Bertini","startTime":3774.762,"endTime":3778.883,"body":"so let us know if you want to suggest a way to improve the show or know any"},{"speaker":"Enrico Bertini","startTime":3778.883,"endTime":3784.384,"body":"amazing people you want us to invite or even have any project you want us to talk about."},{"speaker":"Moritz Stefaner","startTime":3784.744,"endTime":3790.986,"body":"Yeah, absolutely. hesitate to get in touch, just send us an email at mail at data story dot es."}]}